And the winner is..

Miss Mariyah Moten, born and raised in Karachi and moved to US some eight years ago, Ms. Mariyah participated in the Miss Bikini 2006 beauty pageant representing Pakistan and won the ‘Best in Media’ title and sash as being the most interviewed and photographed girl in the entire pageant.

Personally, I dont know how to respond to this issue. While its a step in the positive direction for empowering Pakistani women, at the same time, its demeaning to them as well. The show of skin has slowly but surely permeated into our society, almost to the point of becoming a norm, what with the media blasting us with these images 24/7. Anyway, hats off to Ms. Mariyah for this bold step!! Its not easy breaking the Islamic and Desi barrier!

Mariyah started us off with one pageant, pretty soon, we’ll be having our own in-house pageants.. and why not? We already have a thriving fashion show industry, this just goes one step beyond. So whats next? Ms. Lahore? Ms. Karachi? Ms. Defence?

88 Comments so far

  1. mansoor (unregistered) on September 7th, 2006 @ 10:01 pm

    adnan: its plain to see for you equality doesnt mean anything… As far as women in my family are concerned, i dont have a problem nor will i ever stop any of them from doing what they want. If i do disapprove, i will make it clear, but eventually, whether to do it or not is their decision.

    Where’d u tie in the “See U.S where dad’s field is not mandatory on certificates” into this discussion???


  2. mansoor (unregistered) on September 7th, 2006 @ 10:05 pm

    adnan: You term me as hypocratic, yet you enjoy watching TV, movies and other ‘questionable’ material (which you mentioned earlier i believe) where women are scantily (or not at all) clad?? Think about it….


  3. Adnan (unregistered) on September 7th, 2006 @ 10:16 pm

    mansoor read again,I am not Preaching others to do things whichy you had been tryin for long time.Did I ever preach that pakistani/karachi women should turn to any pakistani/indian actoress?If you preach something then start from your home first thats all I demand.Thts all i had said.


    dont have a problem nor will i ever stop any of them from doing what they want. If i do disapprove

    Easy to say on any public forum but in reality everyone came out as that politician Kher and those wicked men who re involved in honour killings so as I said dont preach something which you cant do yourself.Speaking of your family,your family women would already be aware of *nature* of your family elders then they would definately not like to go for tht,specially when you re part of *mightty* Pakistani Army.

    Men of your family will even cry if some girl of your family falls in love with some poor man who is not compatible with your status.

    Talk something which holds reality rather saying anything to prove yourself ‘bold’.


  4. mansoor (unregistered) on September 7th, 2006 @ 10:32 pm

    adnan: when did i preach stripping down?


  5. GLOW SUBZ (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 10:22 am

    no one is justifying being protective means to be locked at home all the times. Just cover yourself properly.

    You can easily deduce what happened to a honey jar which is placed openly in air as compared to properly closed jar.


  6. hameed (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 2:41 pm
  7. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 9:08 pm

    I feel sorry for most of the posters here. We are here on earth to be happy and to accept and tolerate the happyness of others. “She” does not hurt anybody. Your sense of “honor and national dignity” is totally exagerated. Your understanding of ethic and moral is so much backwards and is actually strangling you to death. No sense of humor at all. It seems that many of you are looking only beyond the life on earth and hoping for 1000 virgins.


  8. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 9:11 pm

    forgot my photo-web-site


  9. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 9:29 pm

    “Males dont have Sex appeal in their Skins. Women do have….that’s why they are asked to hide themselve in order to protect from Wolves of society.
    Posted by: GLOW SUBZ at September 7, 2006 10:05 AM”

    Of course:

    If a girl is showing a bit flesh and you get a “hard-on” – the girl has to be blamed for it.

    If the girl is wearing a mini-skirt and a man’s mental control gets lost because of it and he is trying to touch herg – who is to be blamed for that? Of course the girl is on fault again.

    If a Girl in bikini is lying at the beach and having a sunbath and some young men are secretly peeping at her. Who is to be balmed for that – of course the girl.

    If a woman gets raped because she smiled at a man, of course the woman is to be blamed, because she “invited” the rapist with her smile.

    Damn !!! Did you ever thought that even man have a responsibility for themselves ???

    YOU HAVE TO CONTROL YOURSELF – do not ask the woman to cover herself, because you are unable to control yourself.


  10. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 10:06 pm

    “They believe that women should take just as active role in sexual intercourse as men and not be passive.” (http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/feminist_movement.htm)

    Should they ? Of course they should !!!

    My wife does ! And I love her very much !


  11. Kamran (unregistered) on September 8th, 2006 @ 10:28 pm

    “Mr. Rudolf Knust” with absolutely no knowledge regarding Islamic values and culture, you certainly have no right in proving the nudity of a muslim woman as a “no-big-deal” kinda thing.

    I dont want the discussion to get into politics but why aren’t the women parlimentarians in UK or the congresswomen allowed to attend just one session nude?

    Why aren’t nuns in the churches allowed to attend the Sunday prayers nude?

    Why aren’t women over 60 be seen flashing on public places?

    Just bcoz this seems/sounds/feels/looks really un ethical (to u people for the least).

    Comeon lets be straight, praising a woman for nudism is bcoz of a sinful thought inside one.


  12. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 5:03 am

    Dear KAMRAN,

    I am aware of the fact that in any decent society their are rules. To understand better what I mean I will give you an example:

    On my way home I was suddenly overcome by hunger. I passed a bakery shop and the smell of baked bread made me feel hungry even more. The bread, which was displayed behind the shops window, made my stomach painful. I still have to walk 10 minutes more to reach home where my lovely wife is waiting for me and as usual dinner is ready, too.

    I am thinking, would it be a good idea to ask all bakeries in town to cover their bread with a veil, so that by-passers will not become hungry, or worse, if they don’t have money they might even steel the bread our of hunger.

    O course, that is utterly nonsense. We all have beside our stomach a brain, too. Isn’t it? So we can controll the hunger feeling.

    The same thing applies with sex. If I see a beautiful girl passing my way, I cannot deny that I will look at her and that there is afeeling of temptation. No doubt about it. This is human nature. This is the way our god has created us. Christians, Moslems and non-believers are all the same when it comes to this. The difference is, that some people asked the baker to cover their bread and some people continue to apriciate the sight of the un-covered bread, but instead “using their brain” to control their feelings. Not letting the baker (or the females) bearing the responsibility for other man’s lack of control.


  13. Poo Poo Head (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 7:57 am

    Women are not bread Rudolf. I love pastas ;-).


  14. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 8:45 am

    POO POO HEAD, right you are, women are not bread. They are human beings. The more you cannot force your “male” will on them. You have to let “them” decide for “themselves” wether they like to be covered in a veil or not, wether they want to talk to a man on the street, wether they want to wear lipstick, wehter they want to drive a car, wether they want to be a pilot, or anything this world can offer to them. It should be all up tp them. Man is not the “master” of his wife. I have been living in Karachi for 4 years and staying for the same period in Mumbai (with 40 % muslim population. I tell you my very first experience I had in Karachi. The first days I was staying in the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. I decided to get out of the Hotel and discover the surroundings. There was an incident on the street just in fornt of the hotel which I became an eyewitnes of. A young bearded man trying to cross the street guiding his young son by holding his hands. The son was pulling ahead and suddenly the sound of a breaking car. The driver luckily was able to stop the car right in front of the child. Nobody got hurt. A female driver came out of the car obviously worried about the fate of the child and tried to attend to it. She turned to the father maybe to apologize for the happening. She was not able to speak out, becouse in the moment the man slapped her in the face. This scene I will not easily forget. Weeks later I tried to use a public bus together with my wife in Karachi. The conductor wanted to separate us, which we refused. Another time pakistani friends invited us to a formel party. Again my wife had to separate from me, to be together with all the other females and I had to talk to all the other males, very strange situation. We lived in Defence Phase VI. We wanted to go swimming together in the club, but they again have separation. Why is it like this. Are women a dangerous species?


  15. suhail (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 9:00 am

    Dear Rudolf Knust. Your explanation is sincere. However its true that you do not understand islamic values and pakistani culture. We are against these things not because we as males will get into trouble, its because it demeaning women.Its like saying that every women in the world in only important when she is between 18 to 28 years old, and have a pretty face. making them a commodity.As a human being she is free to do whatever she does, My only wish is that she does not represent Pakistan, she is a US citizen, I hope she calls herself that. In Pakistan we will oppose such women empowerment by atleast 90% vote, (women included). this is not something imposed, its our free will. Our democratic right.We have brilliant women in Pakistan, Benezir Bhutto, Dr Maliha Lodhi, Yasmeen Lari.. Here women are air force pilots.Soon majority of our Doctors will be women, (if its not already so).Just like we condemn some terrorist who will kill innocent people and then say he represent islam, we also condemn an act like what she (an american with pakistani descent) has done. why? because both are not true representation of our country and religeon. For example i know germans are a great nation, and play important role in the world…now if one german goes out and wrapps him self in german flag and do something (no matter good or bad)…will he be necessarily representing Germany? of course not. This will not be a true representation. (I am assuming that you are german, forgive me if you are not).We do not condemn what she does in her private life, thats her choice, just dont wrap our falg around her filthy body.


  16. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 9:15 am

    Dear suhail, thanks for your words and I think you are sincere, too. Yes I am German, and of course the incident I have described ist only a glimpse of my 4-year-stay in Pakistan. We also enjoyed our time there and we had many good friends, also Pakistanis. It is at times very hard to understand each others culture, because differences are too obvious. Not everything what you may condem in our society as sinful is seen in the same way by me and other westeners. We do have rules and we do have controls, but women in Europe went a long, long way to enjoy the kind of freedom they enjoy today.


  17. Sophie (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 9:17 am

    What an embarassment. Typical of the recently arrived (ie, not grown up in the US). She reeks of desperation. While American feminist organizations criticize pageants for anachronistic patronizing and demeaning attitude towards women, this idiot thinks she’s empowering Pakistan.


  18. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 11:01 am

    For SOPHIE: Is it me you are calling an “idiot”?


  19. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 11:08 am

    It seems to me (not only to me!) that islamic countries are “hyper-sensitive” when it comes to certain issues:

    – women (what they are allowed to and what not)

    – blasphemy (what is allowed and what not – cartoons,
    literatur, etc.)

    Things which can be discussed with calm in Europe will bring a moslem country to verge of civil war.

    Is that normal? Am I an idiot or zhere are to many idiots out there!


  20. mansoor (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 11:35 am

    rudolf: your analogy about the bakery hit the nail on the head! if only people would look at the ‘intent’ rather than just the face value (ref:pph’s comment) they’d understand… but then thats a totally different social problem…

    for your two last comments, i believe sophie was referring to Mariyah Moten and not you… so relax :)

    secondly, the ‘male dominated’ society image will take time to diminish as we are still living there mentally. Its not only the men in our society who are guilty for it, its the women as well.

    But, as suhail pointed out, we are on a path of equality, with women coming up and taking more and more roles… naturally, the shift will follow


  21. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 12:00 pm

    Mansoor: Good Post ! Thanks. I believe both societies (West and East (or Islam) have their advantages and disadvantages. Both have something in common, both are “in motion”. Which means nothing is stagnant, nothing remains the same. I am somewhat scared about the “friction” the differences of today are causing to people on both sides, many people are becoming victims for no reason at all, only that they belong to “the other side”. Hope, that the future will benefit both and that people get closer with more inside and more understanding.


  22. mansoor (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 12:09 pm

    rudolf: This friction has me scared as well.. but it wont be going away till we stop labelling each other .. I was watching Bush’s speech the other day, part of the series of speeches he’s giving leading up to Sep 11 attacks, and what really got me was the line, “We will not let Islam’s evil plan of world domination succeed” (not verbatim). Just by those lines, we went back atleast a decade in trying to right the image muslims have world over.

    I agree, most of “us” (muslims).. especially those representing us.. are hardlining jerks! People who promote jihad if someone with white skin even utters the word islam! jerks! total and absolute! While on the other hand, those actually preaching and promoting islam with an understanding of it, have been sidelined!

    Hopefully, someday, we can get an understanding of each other… without killing half the world :S


  23. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 12:31 pm

    I hope that we will see soon Mrs. Hillary Clinton together with “First Man” Bill back again in the White House. A more intellectual aproach, rather a “cowboy-mentality” is needed now. I think that “Bush” has been a “fertilizer” for Al Quaida. We do not need a head-to-head-confrontation with Al-Quaida. We only have to promote and nurture tolerance and understanding on both sides. Gestures of Good-Will on both sides are needed. Islam has to change, too. During colonial times it was a fact, that the christians were converting by force and torture, not only by preaching. We had our crussaides. Those times are over. But those radical islam clerics should not preach violance either and shariah should not include physical punishment, amputation, stoning or executions. In Europe we regard those punishments as relicts of a darker age (medival times). I am not happy about the death penalty in the USA either.


  24. Really need to know? (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 3:36 pm

    Well people.. this was not something unexpected. This constitutes the first step towards the would be days we are going to see in the future. No denying the fact, personal freedom is the hall mark of enlightened modernation.

    Right or wrong, but for sure, some great moments for Pakistani youths. Hghly satisfying circumstances for people in their youth. but would be a curse when our hair starts graying.


  25. mansoor (unregistered) on September 9th, 2006 @ 4:50 pm

    really need to know?: well said!


  26. Poo Poo Head (unregistered) on September 10th, 2006 @ 3:28 am

    your analogy about the bakery hit the nail on the head! if only people would look at the ‘intent’ rather than just the face value (ref:pph’s comment) they’d understand… but then thats a totally different social problem…

    Kid grow up pls. You had no clue what I meant :-) but then I can’t blame you. You have been living with army people who are just told to obey their seniors and never to use their brans and argue. Sorry its a bitter fact.


  27. mansoor (unregistered) on September 10th, 2006 @ 12:23 pm

    pph: ‘living with army people’?? thats the best you can come up with??? :p


  28. Poo Poo Head (unregistered) on September 10th, 2006 @ 2:55 pm

    Yah that was my best and I am sure it hard hard :-) but I still think that you should start taking responsibilities of your acts .


  29. suhail (unregistered) on September 12th, 2006 @ 8:40 am

    some Muslims do need to change , but not ISLAM. Islam is not what some of its followers practice. Like Zakir Nayek , rightfully said, you should not judge a car by its driver. Its a myth that a woman who can reveal her body has more respect than a woman who does not. Just yesterday on cnn website, there is a news video, that the city is considering removal of its police chief because his wife is a porno queen (shows skin on internet). you probably can still have a look at the CNN website, and its libral US, not IRAN.
    Speaking of IRAN, you might have got the news and probably saw the picture of the women who is the chief of the design team of the new fighter aircrat “SAIQAH”, its claimed to be superior than F-18.She is a woman, in “backward” iran. if Islam was that bad to women, why most of the converts are women? here is a news post, about israeli women converting.. (from a jewish news website) http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274735,00.html
    One thing which shall be cleared is that Islam is a universal religeon, its not wise to think that ISLAM shall compete WEST. west is a direction, islam is a religeon, a way of life.Its a philosophy, while our german friend here, does not agree with this style of living, the germans are the largest nation (among western whites) to take up islam as their new way of life. last year alone, 4000 white germans embraced islam. please see the link (US website, german writer i guess): http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51396
    Mr. Knust shall not feel offended by this.. because we do not think, that its our win or something…its the choice of those germans, who after studying islam embraced it. they did not think that this is something from east or arabs, they just analysed it as a way of life. they liked it and embraced it. Islam the fastest growing religeon in US, according to Clintons, both have said it at different occaisions. Clintons daughter has studied Quran, and then did not convert. its her choice, i do not feel offended by it. Its her choice. I think my post is too long, i will break it and write a separate one to express my views on clash of civilization and freedom of speech. hope i did not offend anyone here. Peace be upon you.


  30. mansoor (unregistered) on September 12th, 2006 @ 12:34 pm

    suhail: it is indeed the fastest growing religion, though many still dont convert because of societal/communal pressures.


  31. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 16th, 2006 @ 6:01 pm

    To Suhail,

    no, I do not feel offended.

    It was not my choice to be born in Germany. It was not my choice to have both catholic parents. It was not my choice to be baptized as a catholic (I guess was a baby that time).

    This story I have in common with 3 billion people on this earth which we call our home. What happened to me happened to you also. In fact it happened to everybody on this board.

    We all have been “programmed” to function the way our parents and our teachers wanted us to function.

    We all do the best to please our parents, our teachers, our relatives our friends. Those “friends” have build a system around “you” and “me” to make sure that we will not switch sides, or we are threatened with dire consequences. We will be outcast and isolated, some religions even will threaten to kill you.

    We have been manipulated to a degree that many of us became Jihadis and crussaders.

    Sometimes I like to be send to space, like this iranian woman, just to look to
    down to all the “idiots” running like brainless ants and killing each others for no reason. Killing each others because they had been born into the wrong (or right family at the wrong (or right) time.

    Though each of us, you and me, we and they are not responsible for what we are today, we still sound so convincing when we tell others, that they have the wrong faith.

    Before the time of jet planes there had been island on this earth where people never heard about Islam, Christianity. Are those people worthless, condemmed to fry in hell?

    I came to believe that there must be a god, a loving god. Not because of my parents, not because f my family, not because of my teachers …

    … because of the unexplainable beauty of a colorful butterfly or an orchid. And because of my experience that sharing love will reward you. I do not call myself a Christian anymore (I just adore the meaning of “love” in christian teaching). I cannot be converted to any religion, because I have found my own personal god.

    If you listen to the song of John Lennon: “Imagine”, you may understand what I am talking about…


  32. Rudolf Knust (unregistered) on September 16th, 2006 @ 7:43 pm
  33. mansoor (unregistered) on September 17th, 2006 @ 2:29 am

    rudi: im speechless! what you wrote…. and how you wrote it.. wow!~


  34. crippled boy (unregistered) on September 17th, 2006 @ 3:45 am

    And now back to the topic…..

    she is certainly not heidi klum not even brooke burns….there are no wallpapers available on the net not even the good quality digital images of her ….if she is going for the gold than this is very unprofessional of her sponsors and agency…
    it is so hard to convince my girlfriend and my mother that she is going for the gold and not playing with my dick…..


  35. Poo Poo Head (unregistered) on September 17th, 2006 @ 5:39 am

    Rudolf Dear:

    I just adore the meaning of “love” in christian teaching

    How can you then blame the people who adore the meaning of “jihad” in Islamic teaching. I am just putting it as an argument.Don’t take it as a general view of people in Karachi.

    And there are 6 billion people on earth .Was that your ignorance or you think that people outside of America/Europe/Austrlia are no people.

    In Teaxs,still they ask at some places “Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?” for job interviews. How could you blame Muslims for not showing patience when people in super power can’t exhibit.

    And mind it, Crusades were imposed on Muslims. So its not always Muslims who are intolerants or ignorants. If you dare , I could put lot of facts that Christians have done a lot what “some” Muslim fanatics are doing these days. If you have been to Karachi then you should know that a common Muslim does not have any thing to do with Al-Qaida activities. I don’t know where are you from but you sound like an American who has never stepped out of its country. Instead of writing here , please let your country men , your family know that all Muslims are not bad.


  36. suhail (unregistered) on September 18th, 2006 @ 3:31 pm

    Dear Rudolf Kunst

    thanks for sharing nice website.
    also thanks for telling us about you belief system.I wish everyone will think the way you think. there shall be peace and harmony in the world, as this is what is needed for our survival. We have moved away from the topic here, but i would just like to share with my friends here, that i am a telecom engineer, working for the french telecom firm (yes,you guessed it right!), i have worked in seven countries,including england and switzerland, in fact only UAE was the islamic one among the seven. For the past some years i am living and working in shanghai, and i am surrounded by athiests, here i am all alone, no parents or friends or even fellow muslims to please…and my faith is questioned everyday…i was a muslim, and here i rediscoverd my faith again. Just like you thought a lot before changing your religeon, i also did, and kept my faith in place. you see, i am having the win-win situtaion, if my God is right, i win, if your god is right….again i win (together with you of course).why because the way discribed him…he will be kind and all that..
    anyway… the point we were discussing here is that she is not representing islam and pakistan, thats all. Which god do u believe in is not my business. however i can see that you are a very nice person. you have a thoughtfull heart and u love peace. you are right everyone shall find the God, not select the god.peace be upon you.


  37. Dee (unregistered) on September 18th, 2006 @ 8:22 pm

    @ Suhail….> Well said.
    Dee


  38. mansoor (unregistered) on September 19th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm

    suhail: i agree with Dee :)



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