its a divorce lawyer market
while theres nothing nice about a broken marriage, it is at the very least heartening to know that the women of karachi are finally beginning to step up and demand their rights. and one of the rights they have is a dignified egress from a problematic relationship. the news reported today of the enormous increase in khula cases pending at the various district courts in karachi. an estimated 75,000 apparently.
as expected the issue has degenerated into a discussion on whether women are getting overly influenced by the media revolution which espouses these ideas or whether its simply an increased awareness that has led the women to make a move towards civilisation.
the sad thing is that its the women who’ve been put through enough torture and heartache already who actually have to go through the whole drawn-out and often humiliating process of formalizing the dissolution in court. the men, apparently, can get away with the simple “talaq, talaq, talaq!” routine, remarry or whatever and formalise the details at some later date. how’s that for gender equality?
Has anyone considered looking into organizing their arguments into paragraphs? Just a suggestion.
good suggestion saima, I think i did, but i’ll try again.
republic – it always surprises me how if you talk to someone long enough you can find some common ground, maybe thats whats lacking in the world – discourse.
Many of your arguments are good but they are impracticle, because you assume that everyone who preaches “religion” does it for good reasons.
Truth is most religious teachers the world over are con men. And their followers are motivated often by hatred.
In the real world a theocracy only works well for the people who preach it.
Disagreement with everything , even religion is part of human nature and repressing it leads to a fundamentally scewed flawed and injust society.
Show me a single theocracy which is different.
People should be religious like i said but a govt can not afford to be.
@Saira: I would have but that would have taken more room than it already did, sorry :)
@ASH: “you assume that everyone who preaches “religion” does it for good reasons” that is not true; I am not assuming any such thing. “Truth is most religious teachers the world over are con men. And their followers are motivated often by hatred” this can be said about any group, any ideology could be used to motivate hate or love. Take your pick and you will find examples of that in all, so it’s not justifiable to single out one group. “In the real world a theocracy only works well for the people who preach it” this again is just a general statement with out using any argument, because same things were being said regarding monarchies, communism or even democracies (if its not a true representation of its people).
As I said in my previous post Pakistan is an Islamic country, so its constitution and laws should be based on Quran. People should be able to elect who ever they want but as a nation we should give power to those who do there jobs with integrity and honor. Because even if we adapt a different ideology and the people in power remain corrupt than what good is it going to be. As I said there is nothing wrong with Islam or Sharia just the people who we have in power. That said I also want to mention that the only reason our leaders are corrupt because we as a Nation are corrupt. We cheat, we lie, we stab each other in the back, we take shortcuts for piety personal gains, we are hypocrites ,we have made the habit of such things and our leaders are the representation of that.
I guess this will be the end of it, I just want to say that before our Nation rushes to adopt a different culture and its value we need to take a good look at our selves and the issues we face. Decide if we just want to be Muslims for name sake or not because losing our spirituality will not be a path to progress and success, it will only lead us down a darker tomorrow.
3:77 – Al-Imran (The Famiy of Imran)
As for those who sell the faith they owe to God and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will God (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.
Quran clearly defines that if both the individual are unable to continure, BOTH have right to seek seperation. Unfortunately, The Nikahnama item 14 is always cut out – It spells, Does The Girl have right to divorce?
It is not media, neither it is WEST, it is the education and awareness of their RIGHTS as wife, which makes a GIRL ‘ASK’ for Seperation.
Dramatically, the culture and socio-economic structure of our society PAINT the GIRL BLACK IF she wish to stand up for HER rights.
SAD and BAD, Women are no Animals, they are humans and deserve what men believe is ONLY male previlige
ONLY Islam allows and gave women their rights as humans and elevated their respect among the males, i can continue but space is not enough here……..
well at least the comments are finally on topic…
well at least the comments are finally on topic…
@Jamal Shamsi: “ONLY Islam allows and gave women their rights as humans and elevated their respect among the males” I am not sure if you are commenting on the article or all the discussion we have had. I don’t think any one disagrees with that, the issue that I was trying to bring up was that instead of understanding and implementing our religion we are just switching ideology and moving toward a more liberal culture that looks at religion as an old relic. So trying to make it clear that Islam or Sharia is not the Issue just our own shortcomings are the reason.
@Xill-e-Ilahi“how’s that for gender equality?” depends on what standards you are using to measure equality.
@ the republic: the one that will ensure that the 14th item in the nikahnama is never cut out. i’ve read your comments man – and i agree you’re on target with the fact that its the general muslim populace that does not follow the tenets of islam to the letter and spirit while its the religion that gets the blame. what i dont understand is the passive/agressive behaviour all of the preaching types (and i don’t mean that preaching is necessarily bad) always put up when someone broaches the women’s rights thing.
that applies to everyone from the peshimam at the mosque in your neighbourhood to the self styled (and often self declared) islamic scholars to the bearded group in parliament. and that attitude makes no sense. i thought islam solved the status of women issue with the hadith that gave the mother more entitlement to respect than the father. so why are the muslim mothers, daughters, sisters and wives of today second class citizens when it comes to getting basic rights from within their religio-political-societal structure?
the point i’m trying to make and maybe i haven’t made it too well is that islam gave that right to divorce to women if the marital relationship didn’t work out. and it is the supposedly islamist society of today that works against their exercising that right. if anyone disagrees with that tell me how many qazis or maulanas or wakeels you’ve come across who encourage the girl to keep that right when she signs the nikahnama.
in any case this wasn’t meant to be a forum to debate over the intricacies of religion or beliefs. and it definitely wasn’t meant to be a place to have your beefs with each other (it hasn’t happened on this post but it has happened in the past). i’d appreciate it if the comments were kept more on topic.
peace out.
“the point i’m trying to make and maybe i haven’t made it too well is that islam gave that right to divorce to women if the marital relationship didn’t work out. and it is the supposedly islamist society of today that works against their exercising that right.” (Xill-e-Ilahi)
So called “Islamist society” of muslim men and women highly influenced by the hindu beliefs In PAKISTAN only, as divorce and divorced women are highly stigmatized (bad omen, shagoon, etc.).
I saw a music video of sajjad ali’s ( JULY)in which a girl was kept away from the wedding and pre-wedding rituals(again hindu influenc) because she had a fight with her husband and could be BURA SHAGOON for the bride to be…..and then she makes up and accepts her mistake (its always HER fault)and is thus accepted by the relatives and treated with respect again. Amazingly no one raised any issue after watching the video about the Islamic values and the status of women in Islam……, maybe becuase it depicted reality ……
The rest of the muslim world treats the issue differently and looks at it in a different light….thats why I said, its time we educate men and women before they the tie the knot (counselling) so they respect each others’ rights and in case of divorce behave maturely and handle the affairs with dignity.
saima the problem is not that the tradition derives its roots from “hindu” culture – the problem is that the “muslim” society of pakistan upholds it. not only that, its the conservative religious muslim people who actually believe in it most. so its no longer simply a “hindu” concept. it has become, by association, a “muslim” issue as the chief victim is the muslim woman.
i totally agree with your counselling idea.
At last some sane voices. I almost lost hope.
@Xill-e-Ilahi: I think I haven’t had any disagreements regarding women’s rights, I agree with both you and saima regarding this whole issue of our culture driven by hindu culture. If you thought that I brought the other issue regarding the current trend of liberalization in here because this has to do with women than I would like to make it clear that this was not the reason.
@Saima: no doubt about it, as I said before I agree with what you had to say. This mentality needs to change but my issue is not with the mentality being wrong but the way of changing it. I would prefer we change it by understanding our religion and seeing what Islam is saying about these issues and not because we want to become liberal or secular. Both routes might end up changing the mentality but the ladder might cost us our faith.
@Yahya: “At last some sane voices. I almost lost hope.” darnit I am still around ;), too bad Yahya
Ok let me try and make this clear, sorry Yahya for quoting again
4:128 Al-Nisa (Women)
“If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men’s souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practice self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.”
Now, there is no way I could go against a woman’s right to a divorce. Forget counseling, how many couples do you think know about this verse in Quran? As I said before my points were not against this issue, they were against this mentality that says that our problems will be solved if we turn to liberalization. I would prefer that we promote educating our selves about Islam and learn to do the right thing because we are Muslims. I am not trying to make my self out to be a better Muslim because I am not, I will be lucky if I can become a bad Muslim. You have no idea how lucky I feel and how thankful I am that I was born in a Muslim family and society (even thou it is not perfect) because knowing myself I know if I wasn’t I would have had no chance. This is the reason why I feel that it is important for us to build a Pakistan which is based on Islam and not on a liberal or secular ideology. There are millions of Muslim youth like me who are constantly being bombarded by negative images and are being told that it is ok to do what ever you want because you are “modern” and “educated”. I know it is the parents job to teach them right from wrong but does that mean we have no responsibilities. If we feel that it is our responsibility to change this culture that allows oppression of women than we should also take it as our responsibility to not allow another culture to develop that will lead our coming generations away from Islam.
I hope I didn’t offend anyone because I didn’t mean to. Especially you Yahya, I know I was picking on you ;) sorry bro if I said something to hurt you. It just really hurts me to see all these people going around thinking that they are becoming more civilized and educated by doing away with Haaya and Islam without even feeling guilty about it. As the Hadith says if you see something is wrong than stop it with your hand, if you can’t stop with your hand stop it with your tongue and if you can’t even do that than hate it in your hearth but know that it is the lowest form of Imaan.
“There are millions of Muslim youth like me who are constantly being bombarded by negative images and are being told that it is ok to do what ever you want because you are “modern” and “educated”.” (TheRepublicOfPakistan)
You are free to choose what you are watching and which image is true…..no one can force you to do something….there are books to read and lessons to be learn and along with negative there are positive portrayals…it is upto you to choose. Educate yourself, read literature and history ….read classical literature and see how humans have faced the same challenges and emotions and negativities for centuries…..nothings new, niether the evil nor the fight against it….but we need to be civilised in our search for the truth.
And don’t be apologetic for debating an issue, its your right to do so and ours to defend our point of view….thats how healthy societies fuction….they dicuss!!!!
@Saima: “You are free to choose what you are watching and which image is true…..no one can force you to do something”, OK if that’s the case than why care about women’s right or oppression, that should be left up to the individual, and let them choose, it should also be left up to the parents and families. Why have all of these advocacy groups trying to change people’s behavior or create awareness with regards to women’s right. Its odd that If I am saying that we need to create awareness of Islam and get people to implement Islam in there life (which will also help fix the issue of women’s oppression) than you seem to have a problem and you say it should be the parents job, and individuals choice.
PS. I was not apologizing for debating an Issue, just for unintentionally hurting some once feelings.
I guess both men and women should have a right to leave bad marriage. Of course there are consequences when something goes bad, but sadly it’s often women who suffer more in such cases. There should be laws where husband as a primary bread winner should compensate the wife for their union. In real world everything is not perfect as we know many men use Islam to marry more than one time forgetting that they need previous wife/wives permission and they need to treat them equally.
No one is asking anyone to stop the propogation of islam or for that matter any other ideology….but the right to choose…..is yours and mine…..it all depends on the kind of environment we live in….our families give us the values and the morals and society has little impact on it…..speaking from my own experience ….my ifestyle is the same …although now i live in a much liberal environment….but what my parents taught me lives with me……luckily they also taught me to read and think and then learn instead of just blindly following trends….
In pakistan, someone should talk about FAMILY and BEHAVIOR THERAPY and discuss the effect of family life on a person’s psche….as it will plays an important role in how people deal in their own relationships ….. normally people adapt behaviors….a son would behave like his father or a woman would handle situation like her mother did until and unless they make a conscious effort to change behaviors…….
Our society has been following behaviors without questioning them and now is the time to accept, question and change for the better…
Too many secuar fundamentalists like ash and saima in this thread with their hypocritical view points
republic of pakistan is making some good points, but as usual, the burger bacchays are out in full force screaming about irrelevant stuff and not wanting to debate the issues
bottom line: the english-speaking fornicating burgers themselves can’t have rational conversation and resort to their biased emotions to engage people. they blame every social ill on islam to further their agenda of liberalism. sort of reminds me of some so-called “mullahs” who do the same to enforce islam.
what’s the difference between these two people? at least the mullah has a fear of God.
Can’t say the same thing about you burgers.
p.s.
for those people who say “you don’t have to watch or be influenced by what you see on tv or in society, that’s such an idiotic statement. the culture of the people around may not influence you, but it acculturates as people assimilate, and you ultimately can’t stop it. go see turkey if you don’t believe me. but then again, that’s what the ash’es and saima’s of this world want so they can booze and bang all they want.
@ saima
people choose? please. people like you would force people to accept liberal norm if you could. you hide behind this impetus of “freedom” to pretend like you aren’t a jaahil secular fundamentalist
bottom line: if people were promoting and teaching islam effectively at the elementary level and jaahil secular wallays were not preventing and insulting people in tableegh, etc. people would be much nicer to each other overall. remember, tableegh promotes men being nice to their wife and not too critical if she does not cook well (infact men are taught to cook so they understand how difficult it is and not be so mean to their wives). on the other hand, in your liberal system, the husband can say “f*** you i want a divorce because you suck at cooking” and people like you encourage that because it’s freedom.
the problems you describe would be solved if people promoted islam, and were not prevented from promoting it by the jaahil secularists like yourself who see everything as black and white
the bottom line people need to ask is this:
is liberalism promoting greater intolerance in families or more tolerance?
i argue it encourages more intolerance since it tells people that your individuality is more important than the collective whole. it makes men much meaner to women if they have any defect and women unwilling to compromise if their husband wants anything from them.
in islam, assuming the muslims are not oppressed by burger elitists (which they are, in areas of education, governance, power, wealth, pretty much everything since burgers are favored by the western technocrats who want to destroy islam), it should promote more tolerance since the man should be respectful of his wife, and the wife, unlike the saima’s of this world, are understanding and willing to work together and aren’t b***hes who wine and want divorce immediately if something doesn’t go their way.
I am new to this blog but this rash of hate speech seems a little pathetic to me.
Its sad that someone would just define themself as a “ihate whatever” clearly there’s nothing more to your personality than hate.
Apparently saima who is actually pretty polite just cant catch a break on this blog b/c hateful little men keep popping up with their “insight” on her married life.
Run away pathetic little man. I am sure you’ve tried to “bang” a million times and been rejected by everyone except your illiterate arranged marriage 12 year old bride.
Your insecurites just make you sound like an insecure “wannabe burger”.
We can trade genuine arguments or stupid insults. Your call.
@ saima
people choose? please. people like you would force people to accept liberal norm if you could. you hide behind this impetus of “freedom” to pretend like you aren’t a jaahil secular fundamentalist…by (IHATEBURGERBACCHAY )
but then again, that’s what the ash’es and saima’s of this world want so they can booze and bang all they want….by (IHATEBURGERBACCHAY)
I have not even been able get EVEN a serious, thoughtful, enlightened or WELL-RESEARCHED ISLAMIC response from the “likes of you “…..let alone forcing civilised liberal views………on the madrasah educated youth….. present on this forum…..who think that by reading the selected version of Islam and history TEXT BOOKS gives them the authority to pass JUDGEMENT ON the SAIMAs of this world…..Go and read first before you evn discuss the reason for DIVORCE and its effect…..
AS for my personal and professional achievements….its none of your bussiness….although it shows your level of understanding of life and ISlamic values that the likes of you so harp about………
“and the wife,unlike the saima’s of this world, are understanding and willing to work together and aren’t b***hes who wine and want divorce immediately if something doesn’t go their way.”
by (IHATEBURGERBACCHAY)
@IHATEBURGERBACCHAY
Above outburst is another example of your low intellect, limited reading, eeperience, observation and knowledge of’the topic’ and of analysing people and situations.
If you had CHOSEN to read good, classical writers’ works instead of wasting your time watching ‘c’grade hollywood flicks …..it would have made a positive impact on your LANGUAGE and thought process ……….but you have been trained….. to do and read things imposed on you…..you never had a choice….. and thats why you never learned what responsible choices are about ……life is all about the choices we make……of words,actions,priorities ,friends, literature,relations,emotions,expressions theories,……..the list is endless………I
Before you come and analyse my life have the courage to write your actual name because I don’t talk to ghosts hiding behind “ridiculous pseudynoms. ”
To the Administrators,
Wake up from your slumber and read the kind of comments that are being posted on this forum.”
saima. you don’t even need to respond. the idiot’s comments didn’t merit that much effort. i’m closing the comments on this post because it has been taken over by self deluding chauvinists who like to think they’re being very good muslims.
i understand their psyche. this action will be taken as a defat of the burgers or enlightened moderates or kafirs or whatever the heck think those who don’t agree with their personal interpretations of islam are. frankly, i don’t give a damn.