its a divorce lawyer market
while theres nothing nice about a broken marriage, it is at the very least heartening to know that the women of karachi are finally beginning to step up and demand their rights. and one of the rights they have is a dignified egress from a problematic relationship. the news reported today of the enormous increase in khula cases pending at the various district courts in karachi. an estimated 75,000 apparently.
as expected the issue has degenerated into a discussion on whether women are getting overly influenced by the media revolution which espouses these ideas or whether its simply an increased awareness that has led the women to make a move towards civilisation.
the sad thing is that its the women who’ve been put through enough torture and heartache already who actually have to go through the whole drawn-out and often humiliating process of formalizing the dissolution in court. the men, apparently, can get away with the simple “talaq, talaq, talaq!” routine, remarry or whatever and formalise the details at some later date. how’s that for gender equality?
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I think its great that the media and women and whoever have recognised and started to correct this inherent flaw in our culture. Where as you said men can run out the door with no liability but women can be tortured forever. I dont believe in man hating, men and women should stand up for some fundamental rights and this is one example.
I think its great that the media and women and whoever have recognised and started to correct this inherent flaw in our culture. Where as you said men can run out the door with no liability but women can be tortured forever. I dont believe in man hating, men and women should stand up for some fundamental rights and this is one example.
This is pretty Sad, I am pretty much fed up by how people justify such trends with how it is in the west. This is not something to be proud of and certainly does not show that we as a society have gotten any better. There are lot good things that we could have adopted from the western culture but the only thing we have adopted is the culture of sex, drugs and drinking. While the people who think that they are getting more modern and civilized by engaging and promoting such activities have lost all there sense of morality. And for those of you who will ask who defines what is moral than to them I would say if you are a Muslim than you shouldn’t have to ask such a thing. Are we so blind that we can not see that liberalization does not equal freedom or respect? Liberal societies such as Russia, eastern Europe, All of South America, Mexico have not been able to create a good place for its people. In the name of liberation we will only lead to further decay and women will only be exploited for material and lustful gains similar to that of the west. In the mean while we will lose all our sense to be considered Muslims. Has the love of Allah and Islam gone out of heart so much that we are wiling to reject everything Islamic. I know majority of the people still want Islam as the bases of our society and want to keep the culture of modesty and family values alive. Why are they so quite than? Are they too scared of being labeled as a Muslim, Backward, extremist. When the elites are not scared of promoting the culture of indecency than why are we who supposedly love Islam and Allah are not willing to take a stand and be vocal about such disgusting behaviors. Don’t think that you will not affected if you stay quite because when the house is burning and you just sit there you will be burned with it. Don’t say that there is nothing you can do about it, you can, and the least you could do is voice your selves, find others and be vocal, don’t endorse or ignore such behaviors and ask for our way of life back. Pakistan without Islam is like a body without a soul and our soul is dying and if we don’t do anything now then the only thing left would be a decaying corpse. For those who think I am being harsh and for the smart asses who will say that this has nothing to do with the content of the article. Yea you are right it has nothing to do with the article but why does it matter and yes I am upset and you should be to, it may not have anything to do with the article built but it has everything to do with Pakistan and apparently Karachi is in Pakistan. And if no one is willing to take on this issue and talk about it because either they feel too awkward or fear that they will not be accepted by there peers than this is where it has to be said. Even an animal when threatened fights back and we are humans and on top of that we are Muslims. We should be angry; we should be upset when our own people are telling us to make a mockery of our religion. And BTW I am not a tabligi, mufti or an alim. I am just a Muslim same as most of you who has erred but still have love for my religion left in my heart and until than I can not sit calmly and quietly and watch my religion be rapped or my brothers and sisters be let astray in front of my eyes. Stop being so quite and be heard.
Al-Baqarah:(2:10)In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).(2:11) When it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: “Why, we only Want to make peace!”(2:12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realize (it) not. (2:13) When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:” They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
I just don’t understand this psyche of blaming everything on liberals. First Mullahs bring out “shariat” based laws like Hudood and others. Then they refuse to change them. Then when people are disgusted by the “shariat” as a result and take their own way then they are blamed for being too liberal. What are Mullahs doing for women if liberals aren’t? People have to live their lives and solve their problems whether Mullahs are able to deliver or not on shariat.
er…the west invented sex? i didnt know that. I also didnt know that music is against our culture as far as i know poetry and music and yes dancing is very very much part of our rich cultural tradition.
And as for the west promoting drugs? your favourite country afghanistan is the second biggest opium producer in the world, so maybe check your facts before blaming and crediting the west for everything.
By the way who elected you the equivalent of pope? muslims dont need so called “mullahs” for their faith, we are all equal till judged by God. We need no intermediary. And my favourite quote comes up again “there is no compulsion in religion”. Read the Holy Quran again and this time take off your blinders.
oh and Islam has no problems with divorce, the only people in south asia who have religious issues with divorce are hindu’s so unless you are hindu dont even bother opening your mouth to bash this concept. I am sorry, i am putting words in your mouth, perhaps you dont mind divorce when a man is running out on a woman but your fragile ego cant stand a woman being liberated from a bad marriage.
The republic: You have quoted some beautiful verses of Surah Baqrah. Thanks.
@Ash: When did you land on planet earth? Yes youa re right, we don’t need any mentor, there is no need of Priest,pontiffs,Imams,Pandits at all. We don’t need any teacher in schools. Infact we don’t need any schools and universities. We all can acccess Urdu bazar easily to buy books and educate us ourselves.
See that again, the whole argument you have is based on Mullahs, if mullahs did something wrong than we can do something as equally wrong, who cares if mullahs are not following Islam, do you follow your religion because a mullah told you to, just like when you see what the mullahs did was not right you should also see that what the liberals are doing is not right either. The basic problems that we have stems from the lack of education. I was brought up in Karachi, my family didn’t have to excuse un-Islamic behavior which not only included sex, drugs or drinking but also being violent toward women, disrespecting women, elders, teachers, lying, cheating, stealing etc and at the same time both boys and girls were allowed to educate themselves. Islam is not about going to the mosque, praying five times a day and fasting, it is a way of life. Majority of the Quran talks about the rights of others and our responsibility toward others rather than toward Allah. As far as divorce is concerned I have no problem as to women getting the right to divorce it is part of Islam and she was given this right to get a divorce. If a women is in a bad marriage she shouldn’t have to put up with it. But this mentality of people who say that Islam is our problem toward progress so we should take Islam out of our life than we can progress. How does Islam stop you from getting an education? How does Islam stops you from science? How does Islam stops you from Physics? How does Islam stops you from seeking knowledge? Please don’t say that Mullahs do. I have been around strong Muslim women all my life. Majority of the graduates in Pakistan now a days are Women. While guys were out shooting and killing each other it was the girls who were studying in Karachi. My problem is not ego driven or biased toward women. I am talking about this mindset which says that the only criteria for women to be considered free is if they are dressed in revealing cloths and can go around sleeping with whoever they want. This criteria that a guy can only be modern and civilized if he has been sexually active. Just because I am talking about Islam I am automatically a Mullah, right there it shows how biased you are toward Islam. Plus when I said SEX, I never said west invented sex, if you are going to play dumb that is fine but I was talking about premarital sex, and yes in Islam it is considered a Grand Sin. And as far as letting the people do what ever they want there certain guidelines for a Islamic Country, and they are set for both men and women equally. It is unfortunate that our leaders have failed to implement these equally but just because they have failed does not mean that we should go and reject those boundaries as Muslims. Similar to unjust targeting of women by these laws, we have a similar problem with our justice system which does not provide justice for the poor or even the middle class. So while we are at it should we also repeal all the laws considering Murder, Drug trafficking, smuggling and so forth because majority of the people punished are the poor while the rich are sitting in the Khootes or prime minister house. Just like my parent’s generation was asked to accept corruption, today we are being asked to accept indecency as a part of Islamic society. We as Muslims should not allow this further moral decay in our society. As for your favorite Ayaat I guess you only read and implemented what you wanted from it, you can not pick and choose what you like.
Al-Baqarah (2:256) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
(2:257) God is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will b e companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
(2:258) Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because God had granted him power? Abraham said: “My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death.” He said: “I give life and death”. Said Abraham: “But it is God that ca useth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the West.” Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth God Give guidance to a people unjust.
Sad very Sad
Divorce rate has nothing to do with the west or the east….it has something to do with the two people in a relationship and how they handle their differences….especially when a third party is involved….when people are unable to overcome their mental blocks and egos, when stress, social pressures or personal issues go out of hand, relationships are effected and especially in cases where husband and wife had no chance of privacy to build a good, healthy and friendly relationship.
Divorces are complicated and cannot be blamed on the western influence but maybe to the fact that more women are now financially independent and educated to realise that “no relationship” is better than to live in an abusive relationship (emotionally or physically), which has adverse psychological and health implications on the health of both parties.
our society needs to understand that with changing social scene the stresses and pressures of unrealistic expectations both on men and women have increased……to form a relationship under those pressure is not easy. The unrealistic expectations on part of men and women or families involved can also cause the friction which could lead to divorce, not always is it drinking, sex and drugs that cuases the rift…. as simplified in the above post.
Divorce is even worse when children are involved…bad relationship of parents will have emotional impact on children and on the other hand divorce will give them insecurity…
pysical, financial and emotional, so it becomes even worse.Their education suffers and so does ther trust in others, therefore, even more caution and effort is required on part of the husband and wife to build a goood life than to take things for granted after having children, which happens a lot as people think that now we have children, marriage is stronger.
It is a serious concern and should be discussed as such aand not dismissed by people as WESTERN INFLUENCE.
Allah permitted Divorce although DISLIKED it…. unlike other religions which handle marriage and divorce as destiny, Islam treats it as a choice made by the man and the woman involved….so muslim men and women should realise that it is in their hands to have a good partnership…. provided they choose their partners realistically with the intentions of building a life based on trust and love ……instead of money and physical beauty…..although they are free to do that also, but then.. money and beauty don’t last and love does.
If a man and a woman can appreciate, respect and trust each other , it becomes easy to overcome differences.
Legal procedures are obviously against the women in Pakistan but legal cases are always ugly no matter where you are in the world, divorce cases are always UGLY…west or east…..as in divorce cases the differences of two people are projected as incompetency and lack of character on both sides and if money is involved then God help the concerned parties….because the lawyers will have a field day….or years.
I think the need is to have marriage counselling before and after the marriage as it prepares the two people to be reasonable about each other and a lot of emotional and metal blocks are removed…if someone in friends can play the role, it is as good but kindly don’t dismiss this issue as western evil….as a lot of young people read these postings…atleast they will learn something from this discussion.
(wow I am 2 much for your liberal self huh that now you will stop me from posting comments and make me find another way, was I swearing? or was it just because I am not a liberal?)
See that again, the whole argument you have is based on Mullahs, if mullahs did something wrong than we can do something as equally wrong, who cares if mullahs are not following Islam, do you follow your religion because a mullah told you to, just like when you see what the mullahs did was not right you should also see that what the liberals are doing is not right either. The basic problems that we have stems from the lack of education. I was brought up in Karachi, my family didn’t have to excuse un-Islamic behavior which not only included sex, drugs or drinking but also being violent toward women, disrespecting women, elders, teachers, lying, cheating, stealing etc and at the same time both boys and girls were allowed to educate themselves. Islam is not about going to the mosque, praying five times a day and fasting, it is a way of life. Majority of the Quran talks about the rights of others and our responsibility toward others rather than toward Allah. As far as divorce is concerned I have no problem as to women getting the right to divorce it is part of Islam and she was given this right to get a divorce. If a women is in a bad marriage she shouldn’t have to put up with it. But this mentality of people who say that Islam is our problem toward progress so we should take Islam out of our life than we can progress. How does Islam stop you from getting an education? How does Islam stops you from science? How does Islam stops you from Physics? How does Islam stops you from seeking knowledge? Please don’t say that Mullahs do. I have been around strong Muslim women all my life. Majority of the graduates in Pakistan now a days are Women. While guys were out shooting and killing each other it was the girls who were studying in Karachi. My problem is not ego driven or biased toward women. I am talking about this mindset which says that the only criteria for women to be considered free is if they are dressed in revealing cloths and can go around sleeping with whoever they want. This criteria that a guy can only be modern and civilized if he has been sexually active. Just because I am talking about Islam I am automatically a Mullah, right there it shows how biased you are toward Islam. Plus when I said SEX, I never said west invented sex, if you are going to play dumb that is fine but I was talking about premarital sex, and yes in Islam it is considered a Grand Sin. And as far as letting the people do what ever they want there certain guidelines for a Islamic Country, and they are set for both men and women equally. It is unfortunate that our leaders have failed to implement these equally but just because they have failed does not mean that we should go and reject those boundaries as Muslims. Similar to unjust targeting of women by these laws, we have a similar problem with our justice system which does not provide justice for the poor or even the middle class. So while we are at it should we also repeal all the laws considering Murder, Drug trafficking, smuggling and so forth because majority of the people punished are the poor while the rich are sitting in the Khootes or prime minister house. Just like my parent’s generation was asked to accept corruption, today we are being asked to accept indecency as a part of Islamic society. We as Muslims should not allow this further moral decay in our society. As for your favorite Ayaat I guess you only read and implemented what you wanted from it, you can not pick and choose what you like.
Al-Baqarah (2:256) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
(2:257) God is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will b e companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
(2:258) Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because God had granted him power? Abraham said: “My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death.” He said: “I give life and death”. Said Abraham: “But it is God that ca useth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the West.” Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth God Give guidance to a people unjust.
You are right saima it is an important thing. But you may agree or not our society is very much influenced by the west. I whole heartedly agree with you that a women shouldn’t have to be in a abusive relationship but looking from the past trends we need to learn from them and can not take divorce in the same manner as it is taken in the west. Where a couple lives for years together have kids and as soon as they get married they get divorced. People get divorced on such trvial things as “oh he snores in his sleep” or “oh she is always nagging”.
As for MUSLIM MEN of an ISLAMIC COUNTRY….Islam expects men to be kind to women(even if we assume,she is a scum bag) and let them go with respect and quietly when they don’t want to live with them and ask for KHULA (women anyways have to let go of finacial rights in case of khula)….so why these pending cases….is it islamic????
We actually need more teachers. What we dont need more hate mongers though in the disguise of spiritual leaders.
Maybe if we were a little more self relient in terms of religion and a little less swayed by semi literate svengalis we wouldnt have so many mosque bombs/ deaths/ religious persecution/ domestic violence.
Religion is a great thing but there is actually a reason (i believe) why we have no islamic religious hierachy. Its to prevent the corruption power lust and violence that we see today thanks to our screwed up “leaders”.
Just food for thought.
ash: “muslims dont need so called “mullahs” for their faith, we are all equal till judged by God” well said!!!
@Ash: you are contradictnig yourself. In previous post you said we don’t need any mentor and now you are saying ‘we need more teachers’. What kinda food is it? cooked in Dalda?
I agree that there are culprits scholars in Islam noone would disagree but where are they not? there re so called journalists,lawyers teachers and Army too. Black sheeps are everywhere not only in Mullah community but if you claim that one can learn knowledge without any guidance then it’s very hypothetical statment.
mansoor - thanks!
adnan - teachers as in abc, 123, o.k? once you learn how to read thats all the education you need to understand your religion. Its not algebra. Its meant to be simple, its not mensa.
Everything comes from basic concepts of goodness and morality. Maybe a few adult people need others to put 2 and 2 together for them , but most dont .
why does every discussion turn into a debate on islam….why can’t we discuss the issue at hand?????
teacher doesnt mean a a person teaches you in a school. Teacher also means a mentor for your life and career and such people are required all the time in life. Religion is not algebra but religion is als o not “A B C”. BTW, Algebra was not a difficult subject for me :>
“why does every discussion turn into a debate on islam….why can’t we discuss the issue at hand?????”
Because shallow Mullah types need self motivated version of Islam for their existence.
But atleast some “Un-Mullah with Depth Types” should try to say something constructive about the topic under discussion….why do we have to call and degrade each other with names like mullah , liberals or seculars…. we all are free to have our belief systems and yet discuss the issues productively!!!!!
As soon as Mullahs stop making big speeches, laden with ayat presented in self serving context to try to block progress on issues, I am sure some one will!
This is the irony of Pakistan that Mullahs never let anything good happen if they can help it (starting from creation of Pakistan and education for masses in both pre -Pakistan India and afterwards - for which we are paying dearly). Hudood ordinance is another case in point.
Of course if there is something in it for them such as assembly seats then it is an entirely different matter and all the ayats and “shariat” are conveniently put aside. Remember Mullahs not wanting to have a women prime minister (agreed once a chief Mullah was made chairman of a committee) and the seats for women in assembly (ok when their own women can occupy those seats)? These Mullahs are the biggest bigots and abusers of Islam not to mention cause of many of Pakistan’s current problems. Ordinary citizens are much better Muslim in that they do not keep trying to con everyone in the name of religion.
We can only make progress on issues by completely ignoring these Mullahs.
wow all these people are so offended by only one simple concept of Islam. Y can’t you accept Islam doesn’t allow fornication. And as a Muslim we shouldn’t be allowing such a culture to develope. What is progress, have I said anything about women not being allowed to goto school, work or get a divorce. As a Muslim I am offended by people like Yaaya or Ash who for there own personal desires for lust are arguing for a culture where a muslim men and women should be allowed and encouraged to commit premartial sex or adultry. I am not perfect but I would never promote such a thing just because I am weak person. Where is the liberation in such things. Is that the education you liberals care about and is this what you feel how you can free a Muslim woman from opression. Too bad if you don’t like religion and can’t swollow it, just like the mullahs u should stop decieving people to cover your on persnal gains.
I am not the one who is saying Mullahs are the way or we should follow what they say, you keep mentioning progress, what progress are you talking about? Have we made our education any better, have we fixed our health care system, have we kicked out the feudal landlords? We have new channels opening every other month while in the past 5 years how many universities, colleges or schools have we built. The only thing that you are calling progress is liberalization of the media. May be you should make a cause for changing the name of Pakistan than people like me will shut up. As long as Pakistan is considered a Muslim nation people like me (btw both men/women) will not sit quietly by and see our Islamic moral values go down the drain. Why is it so hard for you to imagine a Pakistan with its roots in Islam, with the justice system that gives justice regardless of gender and class. A justice system that is based on Islam not on the colonial framework. Why not have a Pakistan where education is paramount for both men/women. Current education is based on either religious or secular studies. We need to have a system where we find a balance and combine them. Have educated youth that knows the importance of science, math and technology while remembering there boundaries on modesty and indecency. Is that not going to be progress? Instead of making efforts to liberalize our young with no regards for religion and wouldn’t we be much better off putting our resources toward developing a new generation that values both. Current drive toward liberalization will only make things worst for us, just like corruption did in the past. Things such as lack of education, justice, unemployment, corruption will stay there and we will only be furthering the decay by adding more filth. As I said before having our divorce rate going up is not something to be proud of or something to be cheered. This doesn’t mean that women should live in fear all there lives, but majority of the divorces are caused by the infighting between “Saas, Baaho and Nund” and not by the “oppressive backward men”. So we should stop cheering such trends. We should give a way out for the abused women, while making others work things out between them instead of giving up at the first sign of hardship. May be I am wrong but I believe that this is the kind of society majority of Pakistan wants who still have love and fear of Allah and not the version of progress that both the liberal and religious elites are peddling.
TheRepublicOfPakistan said, “majority of the divorces are caused by the infighting between “Saas, Baaho and Nund” and not by the “oppressive backward men”.”
In some above post it was(by therepublicofpakistan) also said that in the west men and women divorce on simple issues like “husband’s snoring” or “wife’s nagging”…..
Atleast this part can be corrected…divorces happen because two people cannot resolve differences and other people around can take advantage of the situation..be it the nund or saas or the other man or the other woman….it is never snoring or nagging…..either in the east or the west……I said earlier relationships need time and effort and unfortunately people don’t have enough time to spend with each other in today’s world, to be able to develop understanding for each other’s needs……time and respect are the keys to any relationship. Now when the priorities and expecctations are unrealistic, differences arise and if these differences are not resolved with maturity the relationship starts to crack up.
I had asked about the KHULA issue….that why men (in Islmic Pakistan) don’t show compassion to their wives as asked by Allah….and why do they drag women in the courts when they can let them go quietly and kindly…..now
I want to know where do saas,nund or devar, Jaith(i.e na-mehram men) stand in this relationship of a man and his wife…..islam is very clear about a women’s right to have her own home…then why the joint family system…..is it islamic????or has hindu origin???
Men and women are suppose to be respectful of each others relatives and children are supposed to take care of their parents (regardless of their gender)then why this confusion of saas and nand or sala & sali…….
The oppressive males(as said by therepublicof pakistan) are responsible for this state of affairs….they should be MAN enough to be able to give rightful place to their wives, mothers and sisters and then no confusion will arise which will cause friction……
I still feel instead of having this discussion irresponsibly, raise some serious issues so people can learn from these posts….as i have just realised that most of you here were born during the 1980’s and probably are not even married to even realise what can cause a relationship to die a slow death.
Marriages are serious decisions and should be treated like that and when one fails to be kind, respectful and responsible about one’s behavior in a relationship, things eventually go bad….which with the stuborn behavior of the man or a woman can end in divorce.
Men have bigger responsibility and a better status(in Islam) in case of a divorce because of psychological and physiological reasons also….for example, women go through post- natal depressions and can behave irrationaly at such a time….thats when a husband is suppose to behave with compassion and not react to the wife’s mood swings…. the same applies to women…when a man is stressed they should provide him the support he needs……
Kindly don’t simplify the issue of divorce as an influence of media and the west…it is a global phenomenon with several cultural, social, psychological, financial reasons and should be dealt and discussed as such.
And no one is ever proud of the increase in divorce rate…..wether in the east or in the west…..it is looked as a serious social problem and is treated and discussed as such everywhere in the world.
if you don’t like religion and can’t swollow it, just like the mullahs u should stop decieving people to cover your on persnal gains.
awesome
IMO, there are few basic[but not easy] things which can solve this issue in this country.
-Men start accepting women as humans rather a ‘lowest or untouchable creature’.
-Women on the other hand don’t demand too much from their men in the name of independence or anyother thing.
This issue is common in both educated and jahil people of this country and I wouldn’t consider this issue a west issue much because most of the makhdooms and sains in distant areas don’t copy west anyways. They oppress women because they consider it heoric which infact is an act of Impotency and I don’t buy the theory of “Saas Baho” because again it’s the man who actually has to use his brain to resolve such matters rather beliving both parties blindly.
Just PKR 5.00
the republic should re-read what he said. Neither me nor yahya said we are promoting lust or premarital sex. Thats your own dirty mind and insecurity speaking.
Clearly you cant differentiate a humane “western” argument. like, say “equality” versus something like pornography or prostitution. The west has some problems but if you think the east has no problems you are pretty stupid, even for a guy who can handle algebra but cant understand that humans should all be treated equally. With equal respect. With equal dignity.
You are the typical mullah lamb. Full of speeches and quotes on the outside but with no humanity on the inside. On the inside there is just hate.
I do not have a problem with religion i have a problem with hatred.My personal gain - which needs to be disguised because its so cunning and cruel - is that i want every human on the planet to be treated well by other people. To not be subjugated or be humiliated, to have basic human rights and opportunities. WHETHER THEY ARE MEN OR NOT. INFACT WHETHER THEY ARE MUSLIM OR NOT. To me that is the very essence of religion. And when you turn away from that you become a complete hypocrite. The mullahs have mostly turned away from that so yes i do oppose them .
Oh and saima, i think you have made some very good arguments. The reason why these discussions always go off point is that our society is held hostage to backward and unislamic actually hindu concepts, in this case about divorce.
Saima sorry for not responding to your previous posts. I am sorry for taking this discussion to a different topic, but if you read my 1st post I made it clear that I realized that what I was saying was not completely related to this article but because no one is willing to take on this issue of the so called “sexual liberation” of our society and promoting to make it an Islamic social norm, I had to bring it up in this forum. I didn’t mean to belittle the issue of divorce by any means and that was not my intent. I completely agree with you that this idea of joint family system is only cultural based and sort of unique to South East Asia and this mentality needs to be changed but that again comes from the lack of understanding and appreciation of our own religion. A woman in Islam is given the right to have her own house and both men and women need to understand that. Men have the responsibility to support both his wife and parents, be it together or separate. Men can not hide behind the veil of culture and use religion in other instances to get out of this responsibility. But at the same time I would also urge women to keep in mind that average people (both male/female) in Pakistan don’t have enough income to support 1 home let alone 2, unless they are willing to make sacrifices and are willing to live with a lot less. I don’t know if you will agree but this usually is not the case and couples want to maintain the same life style as they had while living at there parents home. Even if both husband and wife are working they usually don’t make enough to maintain that lifestyle plus the husband is not able to support his parents which is also his duty and should not be forgotten. Similar to the rights of women in Islam to have there house men are also only responsible to provide food and normal clothing to there wives and things like jewelry, cars are a added bonus. Don’t take it the wrong way I am not saying that a husband should not pamper his wife to show love for her but both should keep in mind the constraint caused by income and should come to an understanding and compromise, and avoid making demands that can not be fulfilled responsibly. Lot of time this doesn’t happen because both are caught up in this idea of material love and forget that a good marriage is not based on how big your house is. I also really appreciate that you have put some real thought behind what you said in the previous post as to why Islam has put certain behavioral restriction regarding divorce. And you have not tried to completely reject the Islamic principles and were trying to discuss it in an Islamic frame work. This is the kind of dialogue our generation needs to see and hear, but majority of the time the only voices we hear are either from the people who are trying to impose a culture in disguise of religion or people who totally want to reject the idea of religion (specifically Islam) and impose a system driven solely based on secular or liberal ideals. We can all probably agree that the majority of Pakistan wants change, but the majority also doesn’t like to see where we are headed and away from our basic religious believes and teaching. I would like to hear what you have to say about what I said in my previous post regarding the kind of progress we should be striving for because similar to the Issue of divorce the issue about the vision and direction of our country is also very important to be left up to the liberal media elite or Ash and Yahya’s beloved Mullahs. And I for one would not want my kids to be growing up in an Islamic society where they are chastised for being modest and pressured to commit zinah (I know it depends on how you raise your kids but it will also be irresponsible for us to help create an environment that makes it easy for them to be overcome by temptation specially important for a country that we call an Islamic country)
IMO, there are two basic[but not easy] things which can solve this issue in this country.
-Men start accepting women as humans rather lowest or untouchable creatures.
-Women on the other hand don’t demand too much from their men in the name of independence and accept their responsibilities seriously.
This issue is common in both educated and jahil people of this country and I wouldn’t consider this issue a west issue much because most of the makhdooms and sains in distant areas don’t copy west anyways. They oppress women because they consider it heoric which infact is an act of Impotency. I also don’t buy the theory of “Saas Baho” because at the end of the day, it’s the responsibility of the man to resolve such matters properly rather beliving in both parties blindly.
“if you don’t like religion and can’t swollow it, just like the mullahs u should stop decieving people to cover your on persnal gains.”
We don’t want fatwa from jalee muftis like you for us to know what we like or not. Its Mullah people like you who are root cause of our society’s problems. Kam kay na kaj kay sawa man anaj kay.
“the republic should re-read what he said. Neither me nor yahya said we are promoting lust or premarital sex. Thats your own dirty mind and insecurity speaking.” - Adnan
I did not want to dignify republic’s stupid remarks. He knows what we wrote but like a typical bigoted Mullah is trying to make up things to hide behind. Fact is I am residing in UK for several years, read five time sprayers with few exceptions, just finished 30 rozas, support a full beard despite getting looks from everyone and even when some of the Republic type Mullah-wannabees have dropped their beards to french or a goti. You can be in the middle of the evil with all the opportunities and still be a Muslim. However Mullahs like republic want people to see Islam in danger among 95% of Muslim population(!) so they can continue to have their halwa.
We, Islam and Pakistan can not progress with these Mullahs aboard. Period.
hey yahya , that was my quote not adnans :)(i am ash)
I am incredibly proud to know you. Thats the kind of religion we need to see and believe in. To answer the republic if you want your kids and their descendants to respect and believe in islamic values, you have to show them this kind of faith.
Not a system of mullah enforced degradation but a system of belief and value and spirituality. In tune with our history and in tune with our future.
Not a fossil but an active beautiful vibrant faith, like yahya’s.
@yahya re-read what you just said:
We don’t want fatwa from jalee muftis like you for us to know what we like or not
Correct you are free to do what you want and you are not required to accept his statment but then you say:
Its Mullah people like you who are root cause of our society’s problems.
and
We, Islam and Pakistan can not progress with these Mullahs aboard. Period.
We also don’t your fatwas about what mullahs are or not while as you said majority of Pakistani population is moderate and can use brains.
Note this that moderate doesn’t mean association with lefts liberals or rights religious extreemists anyway. As long as both cabals exist in our society along with fudalism and Military-ism, Pakistan or any country can’t do anything good for its people.
p.s: nobody gives a shit what you pray or practise in your daily life.
“p.s: nobody gives a shit what you pray or practise in your daily life.” - Adnan Siddiqi at November 1, 2006 12:51 AM
I am sure your mother is very proud.
Suddenly adnan doesnt give a shit whether people pray or not. First you people say Yahya’s not muslim enough and then suddenly he is too muslim, so now you dont give a shit what anyone does in their own life? Do you have multiple personalities all of a sudden?
Get over yourself little lost boy.
Calling me a Mullah or jali mufti is not an argument, just by calling me names you can not change the fact that our societies are being forced to accept indecency as a social norm. In the name of progress and modernization we are being asked to show no resistance to such behaviors and if we do the only thing you do is call them backward and outdated. As I said before Islam is just about praying five times a day, fasting and other rituals, it is a way of life. And looking at both Yahya and Ash’s comments the only thing you seem to have been conveying is Islam is all good and dandy as long as you stick to the rituals but the only way you can learn and gain knowledge is if you become a liberal. Are you deny the fact that today at least in the major cities of Pakistan it has become an accepted norm for young couples to fulfill there desires. All in the name of freedom and being progressive. And you as a Muslim are not disturbed by such attitudes toward such serious actions. Are you going to sit there and tell me that on the one hand how “Mullahs” are using Islam to oppress women but on the other hand sit with the attitudes of “So What” while there is so little regard being shown to some of the very basic principles of Islam. You are saying you have a beard (assuming to fulfill your religious obligation), pray five times, fasted and guessing by your last comment don’t consider Zinah a trivial thing than why is it so offensive for you to come out and say that this should not be happening in a Muslim society. Did all the above things that you said you do for Allah stopped you from seeking knowledge, respecting women, treating people kindly. If not than why are you so against this idea that we shouldn’t be so obedient in accepting a liberal culture rather try and build a society which asks the young to educate them selves while reminding them certain boundaries with regards to modesty and decency. You can go ahead and re-read all the posts I have written and tell me where is it that I have endorsed practices of oppression in our society. Just because I call for modesty for both men and women I am automatically a Mullah (in a negative sense that is), I guess if asking to promote modesty is your criteria for backwardness than you should just come out and say that Quran is outdated, because I am not asking you to promote my “own dirty mind and insecurity” and since I know how offended you are by me posting ayaats from the Quran you can go look it up your self, try surah Noor. “We, Islam and Pakistan can not progress with these Mullahs aboard. Period.” Would you care to define Mullah and how is it that I am Mullah because if I am than I guess the only people you will be pleased with are the “wannabe western” burger class of Pakistan (see if I wanted to I can also put people in stereotypical categories)
o.k republic. So what i guess you need to hear is that i think premarital is a huge big problem. Yes it is. But the fear of that happening is what the “mullahs” use to sell oppression and backwardness in every shape and form. In africa “muslims” use female genital mutilation to achieve this form of purity.
Do you understand any of this? I dont want my own kids to grow up thinking they are britney spears either. But these arguments have been used BY THE MULLAHS to justify everything upto and including violence again women.(hear about the australian cleric?)
I am moderate in my beliefs. Yahya sounds like he is devout. Which is fantastic, so there are many out there who understand the difference between using religion for personal good and using it for hatred, oppression and power.
You seem to think that so long as mullahs run around preaching backwardness and violence your children are safe. Maybe you dont know enough children who have been molested by their maulvi;s but i do.
We have the same catholic priest problems in our society but we are ofcourse unable to fix that or anything till we understand that premarital sex prevention can not be our first last and only priority.
It’s not something I need to hear, it’s something that we need to guard against and have people not only be ware of but also participate in stopping such things. We can not become complacent about such things and compromise over them. I am aware of such molvis and just because our justice system is incompetent in enforcing the law justly doesn’t mean that now we should keep a blind eye on consensual sex. You may disagree but Christians have over time compromised over there religious teaching and face of today’s Christianity is not the same as what Jesus taught. Adultery, gambling, pornography and others where all prohibited in Christianity but over time by compromising it has become an accepted norm and is not looked down upon by the majority anymore. For you this may not be a priority but for me as a Muslim it tops the priority with moving the clock back on corruption and spread of education. Science tells us what we can do with things in this world but its Islam that guides us as to how and where to use it. Today we may not realize it and probably majority of Muslims feel that such things are sins and feel guilty committing such acts. But if we let these trend continue unchecked by the time we have kids and they grow up they won’t even have that guilt or a need for repentance for such act because by than these things will be considered trivial. If this is the kind of Islam we want to have than agree or not it is not going to be Islam. Once we start picking and choosing things, accepting some and rejecting others than it’s not going to be Islam that we will be following, it will only be something that suites our life style and that we will pretend is Islam.
BTW: I lived half my life in Karachi and Half in the States. So don’t think I don’t know what things are like and thats why i don’t want to see pakistani youth deal with what people abroad have to deal with. We can have a society based on our religious values that respects others but have boundires on certain things and we should not feel backward or ashamed for having such boundries.
“I would like to hear what you have to say about what I said in my previous post regarding the kind of progress we should be striving for because similar to the Issue of divorce the issue about the vision and direction of our country is also very important to be left up to the liberal media elite or Ash and Yahya’s beloved Mullahs”–(therepublicofpakistan)
No one on this forum or anywhere in the world promotes sexual promiscuity because it signifies progress….this is the impression one gets from the ‘American media’, but even Americans are very conservative when it comes to extra-marital sex, family values and raising children. It all depends on which part of USA we are talking about….. European and scandanavian countries have definitely taken sexual promiscuity to new hieghts but no sensible person in those counties endorses or encourages it but are worried for the safety of their children as we muslims are. I personally know so many americans, europeans and chinese who are working selflessly and are determined to stop financing of porn sites and child prostitution, who spend time on inquiring ways and means to bring such promiscuous people to justice and have even succeeded….there are laws about alcohol consumption and age limits …..rehablitation and support groups to help young people achieve sprituality, there is a whole campaign against the use of women in advertisement and their exploitation and debates in school and colleges on these issues, they openly denounce likes of PARIS HILTONs of today…. but unlike our country they don’t hide their sins….they accept the ills of the society and try to resolve them.
For them unlike us, it is not an easy war also as their media and marketing firms are freely and heavily funded by sex and porn industry and yet they are working to protect young people from the moral and social evils……they have ills but have the courage to accept them and it is only acceptance and education which brings the change.
Now coming to our society…. the sexual promiscuity existed even before our times, prostitution would have ended at the “creation of Pakistan ” if the religious , political and social workers were so serious about the morals of the society, it didn’t because we are hypocrites and blame everyone for the rot but ourselves….since there is demand there is a supply!!! and who is supplying…only the liberals and seculars????
You would be amazed to know that I witnessed extra marital affairs among poor men and women in 1980s and 1990s just not in the cities but in far flung areas of interior sindh and punjab,NWFP & Balochistan, where there was no media or “liberals” to tempt them but their own “nafs”and lack of education. Incest and rape is rampant in the slums and in the elitist circles in pakistan and a few NGOs dare to talk about it but society as a whole has not come together to change the situation, the so called “malishias” are sitting on every roundabout and corners of the city for sexual services and DAWN did a whole investigative story,some 4 or 5 years ago( even giving rates) on the issue but has society or the DAWT-E -ISLAMI organisations come forward to change the situation and educate the poor people living in dark ages, is there any rehablitation program for such people or is ISLAH only for the singers and actors today.
Has anyone told girls to be proud of their education, sprituality and not physical beauty….are all average looking or older females are acceptable as wives by the boys and their families now…do parents ask for piety instead of degrees and financial status when a boy comes for the proposal…..do we treat our female or male domestic workers with respect and try to educate them……have men stopped accepting dinners and dowry from the girls’ family…do we look down upon men and women who do so……. do we treat another muslim as we would treat our own kith and kin…….do women get social support in the absence of a bread winner……does anyone raises this issue with the govt…… have we stopped raising fingers at others…..do we hold our self responsible for the problems in our life or treat them as DESTINY……has all the namaz and roza turned us into a modest being (AAJIZ) or do we just pay lip service when we call ourself “guhegar” and offer “ASTAGHFAR”……it is so easy to blame west, liberals, seculars or mullahs for the ills and so difficult to practice what we preach.
You can easily teach your children moral values, no matter where you are in the world, as long as you remain a good role model……. children who are influenced by the media are the ones whose parents have no time or resources to educate them.
Talk to your girls and boys about the islamic laws and why Allah wants us to follow them…..parents need to discuss the physical and psychlogical disorders and implications of sexual promiscuity with the youth and how dangerous temptations can be…..
And the best is to teach them self-respect and self-esteem so they always look down upon the sins and immoral acts, whether it is crime or sex or drugs.
@yahya:certainly my mother feels proud that her son doesn’t belong to any lefts or rights group which keep imposing their own versions of Islam on masses rather he belongs to majority who never gave a shit to extreemist liberals and psuedo religious people.
@Ash: Bibi, certainly It’s none of my concern whether he or someone bows infront of God or not. I don’t belong to liberal nor right group who impose personal matters on others and always sound hypocrite. Give yourself a break and take this yahya off the site and carry on his praises. It doesn’t disturb anyone.
Republic, It would be nice if you or someone else shed some light about the topic.
@Ash, fact of the day, We lost Bangladesh because of Army not because of Mullah and whole Pakistan was molested after 1971 war. Offcourse nobody forgets the corruption in last afghan war. We were offended in Kargil war due to Army and a political leader, not because of Mullahs. If you bother yourself to read the history of this country then you would realize who screwed this country most.
dear lost boy,
read our history yourself …thank bangladesh’s sepration to “racial” oppression perpetuated by screwhead bhutto. You can also thank him for introducing mullahs to political power, - this alchoholic hypocrite who spawned all the hypocrites after him.
I dont quite understand how you want to portray yourself, except that you want to disgree with me about everything. You said that you are a “moderate” karachiite, thats a lie. Moderates dont argue so hard for oppression.
You hate people who say that they are observant muslims, you hate the pakistani army, you have no respect for the quaids vision of a secular proegressive culture.
Except that you love mullahs, and the republic is your hero i just cant get a grasp of who you are …how old are you? your comments are o.k if you are 13 years old but if you are older you need to grow up a little.
oh and by the way, stop crying about the afghan war. Afghanistan has NEVER been a pakistani ally the have always sided with india go read about pre 1979 politics and see the disdain with which they speak about us now.
We got screwed because hate blinded idiot zealots decided to create the monstrous spectre of the taliban who will destroy us and the whole world if we let them.
You know how many afghan women have set themselves on fire since the taliban came back? Do you realise that they set schools on fire to prevent girls from being educated?
you dont care do you ? ask your mother if you are a “moderate”.
your comments are o.k if you are 13 years old but if you are older you need to grow up a little
“Ad hominem fallacy”
Impressed that you have even of that flaw. Would be more impressed if you could see it when you or your buddies are arguing. So maybe you are 14 :)
I think we have said it all. Clearly noone is changing anyone elses mind.
@Saima: Thanks for your response, I agree with most of your comments but I have to disagree on the approach and the tactic we should be using. As you said that American society in general is conservative and there is a lot of effort being made to counter the affects of such practices. As you also agree that it is not an easy thing to do and the main reason is that it has spread too much and people have gotten accustomed to such things. We don’t have to take the same route and show leniency in the spread of such a culture. There are a handful of people who are promoting such things and asking the majority to accept it as progress. I also agree that this is not something new and it existed in the past. I am aware of the “keys in a hat” culture and how this is present even in the villages of Pakistan. The difference now is that such things are now being glamorized and glorified. I also agree that parents have the BIGGEST responsibility in teaching there kids right from wrong. There is no argument about that, Muslims parent living in non-Muslim societies have been dealing with similar issues for years, they try to teach there kids all the Islamic values and morals in an effort to try and counter the influence of the media and culture that they live in. But they have to do this because they have to accept the values and culture of such a society and they can not force them to conform them to there beliefs and values. It will be irresponsible for us to have the same attitude while living in a Muslim society. Parents still have the responsibility to teach there kids in Pakistan but we should not allow a similar culture to develop in our society. Our media should promote Islamic values and showcase Islamic morals rather than try and duplicate the western media. Educated in our society need to get of rid of this mindset of judging progress with westernization. “Has anyone told girls to be proud of their education, spirituality and not physical beauty” this is not true most of the parents who value there faith and are not embarrassed about being Muslim do this and not just with girls but also to boys. But our media has also gotten in the habit of marketing products by using sex appeals. Just like western cultures have the right to develop and promote there values, Muslims societies should use there media to promote there values. We need to be careful how we judge progress, it is not progress that there is a lot of construction going on, how the media is getting liberalized. We still don’t have basic necessities for the majority, clean water, healthcare, food, education and not much is being done about that. We are being told by the same people how have exploited us that all our problems will be solved only if we become secular and liberal. There is nothing that we will gain if we just did what they are asking, instead we will only lose the most important thing as Muslims which is our Faith. (at least for me it is)
@Ash: I have tried to present my points in the light of Islam and what an Islamic society should be. I have not tried to justify our cultural practices that are wrong; I have tried to convey what Progress means to me as a Muslim and that for a Muslim his/her faith comes before any thing and can not be compromised. Besides calling me and adnan names or using the ills of our society i.e”Mullahs for not practicing what they preach” and using buzz words such as “Progress”, “Liberal” or “Secular” without using the context of Islam and with no definition of “Progress”, by doing that can not justify rejecting anything based on Islam. “Moderates dont argue so hard for oppression.” And were in my statements you see me or adnan arguing for such a thing. “You have no respect for the quaids vision of a secular progressive culture.” And did you forget that Pakistan was founded on a belief that it should be a country for the Muslims to practice there religion and have Islam be the bases while respecting others. Now lets see what is “secular progressive culture” and keep in mind being a Muslim I am bound by certain values and believes, you don’t have to accept them but right now we are talking about “The Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, keyword being “Islamic”. Don’t take it the wrong way, I am not trying to offend you by any means but trying to tell you in what context I am making my arguments and why. “Secular” ideology is based on the Anglo-Christian view and it works for them, which is fine, but as a Muslim it goes against the principles of Islam. As I said before Islam is not just doing rituals, it is a way of life (even thou as Saima said we only pay lip service to it). This means that not only Islam is part of our personal life but also family and social life. There is no division between state and religion. The reason for this is because as part of our belief everything Muslims do is governed by Allah’s command, therefore our laws and societies need to reflect the implementation of these commands. I know the Issues with Hudood Ordinance and similar sharia based laws that are used to commit wrongs on people. But that is not because shaira is bad, we can have the most just secular laws on the book but if people who implement and enforce such laws are corrupt than these laws are going to be as useless. Every ideology can be used to oppress, “communism” look at Russia they don’t have “Sharia”, look at America 50 years ago, it was ok for Anglo Christians to oppress other minorities and natives, and history of the colonial era is filled with such oppression. Even now all of Europe is dealing with growing Muslim populations and in order to discourage such things you have France with laws against head scarves, Britain even more recently is dealing with the veil issue. Why such actions coming from societies that are supposedly liberal and free but they are taking such actions because a fear they have about losing there lifestyle, cultural values and standards. Which is fine because it is there society and they have all the rights to protect there values. But they can not have a double standard on such things on one hand they can not pretend to be all about individuality and on the other hand force Muslims to assimilate and call it oppressive to be modest and clamp down on them using the slogans of “Terror”, “Extremism” and such. Similarly Muslims societies can enforce there values without trying to give any justification to the West. Islamic societies have different values, standards and framework to go by PERIOD. There is no shame or backwardness about that; it is simply not a copy of western society. And just because a country is Islamic doesn’t mean that other religions are not respected in them. If any argues that than all they have do is look at Spain, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, India, Indonesia, North Africa and other places where Muslims ruled for centuries and these places still have pretty big minorities of other religious groups and in some cases majority.
dear republic.
We seem to agree that mistreating other religions (or people who dont believe in religion) is wrong. We seem to agree that education is a priority. We also agree that the ideal culture would be a culture of modesty, respect and resposibility.
Now here is where we disagree o.k.
I do not agree with the radical backwards and often hate filled agenda you hear from most mullahs (i am not calling you a mullah) they are an embarrasment, and can only be effective in a country where religion is the state and most people are uneducated.
When you educate people you give them a choice (whether you like it or not) they can choose to believe the same way you do or chose to disagree and then in a civil society you have to accept their decision.
Not every person thinks exactly the same way as you, society has many different spectra, how are we going to exist as a world or as a country if one group of individuals decides that their way is the only way that will be allowed?
No, unfortunately we will have to take saima’s way to protect our kids and hope for the best. Because progress which i define as the lack of subjugation, humiliation, violence or discrimination, and the presence of humanity,education, equality and healthcare is not possible as long as we hitch our cart to the tyrranical and absurd mullah star.
Dont fear change and liberty so much. My cousins who grew up in the US are way better and modest people than a lot of the non burger kids i know from karachi. I grew up in england. If you are not intrinsically modest then living in a facist state makes you a better hypocrite but not a better person.
@Ash: I guess we can disagree, but as I said from an Islamic context, there is no division between religion and state. “Don’t fear change and liberty so much”. I don’t fear change and liberty but view of liberty and change are different. For a secular society boundaries on liberty are set by Laws and Rules of what the majority decides, for a liberal it is left up to the individual, but for a person who calls him/her self Muslim and for a nation that is called a Islamic nation boundaries are decided by Allah. Islam literally means “Submission” and Muslim “The one who submits” even going just by the definitions you can see the difference in the meaning of Liberty. Similarly using the word “Change” is not a justification for any thing. Change can be a good thing and it could be a bad thing depending on the perspective you take. Change can only be considered good if the majority of the people affected by it consider it good. Simple example is say you are a player in some sports team and than say that you get replaced by some one else and than you ask why you were replaced. If the majority considered the other to be the better player than it will be considered a good change and if the majority disagrees than it is a bad change. Similarly you may think that it is the coach’s decision and if the coach says you are out than you are out and no matter how bad you think it is you deal with it i.e the Islamic view submission to Allah, other way would be people decide to take a person and say we will accept this person’s decision with “no if and buts” i.e a secular/democratic approach than you have a liberal/democratic approach majority thinks that you sucked and that’s it. All approaches on there own are valid and ok as long as who you are and what you believe. So I am just reiterating it that for an Islamic country the buck stops with Allah. Laws, code of conduct, decency, justice etc all our developed in light of Allah’s commands. Now if “Mullah”, “General”, “Politicians” or any one else for that matter is not doing that than it does not mean instead of replacing such leaders you are saying that we should change our ideology. How can change in ideology going to fix the issues, there is nothing wrong with the ideology just the people who we have adopted as leaders.
We need to have a drive toward education and understating of our religion. Need to stop giving lip service to Islam and implement the teachings in our daily life. We don’t have to adopt a new ideology, instead we need to practice Islam with true faith.
Has anyone considered looking into organizing their arguments into paragraphs? Just a suggestion.
good suggestion saima, I think i did, but i’ll try again.
republic - it always surprises me how if you talk to someone long enough you can find some common ground, maybe thats whats lacking in the world - discourse.
Many of your arguments are good but they are impracticle, because you assume that everyone who preaches “religion” does it for good reasons.
Truth is most religious teachers the world over are con men. And their followers are motivated often by hatred.
In the real world a theocracy only works well for the people who preach it.
Disagreement with everything , even religion is part of human nature and repressing it leads to a fundamentally scewed flawed and injust society.
Show me a single theocracy which is different.
People should be religious like i said but a govt can not afford to be.
@Saira: I would have but that would have taken more room than it already did, sorry :)
@ASH: “you assume that everyone who preaches “religion” does it for good reasons” that is not true; I am not assuming any such thing. “Truth is most religious teachers the world over are con men. And their followers are motivated often by hatred” this can be said about any group, any ideology could be used to motivate hate or love. Take your pick and you will find examples of that in all, so it’s not justifiable to single out one group. “In the real world a theocracy only works well for the people who preach it” this again is just a general statement with out using any argument, because same things were being said regarding monarchies, communism or even democracies (if its not a true representation of its people).
As I said in my previous post Pakistan is an Islamic country, so its constitution and laws should be based on Quran. People should be able to elect who ever they want but as a nation we should give power to those who do there jobs with integrity and honor. Because even if we adapt a different ideology and the people in power remain corrupt than what good is it going to be. As I said there is nothing wrong with Islam or Sharia just the people who we have in power. That said I also want to mention that the only reason our leaders are corrupt because we as a Nation are corrupt. We cheat, we lie, we stab each other in the back, we take shortcuts for piety personal gains, we are hypocrites ,we have made the habit of such things and our leaders are the representation of that.
I guess this will be the end of it, I just want to say that before our Nation rushes to adopt a different culture and its value we need to take a good look at our selves and the issues we face. Decide if we just want to be Muslims for name sake or not because losing our spirituality will not be a path to progress and success, it will only lead us down a darker tomorrow.
3:77 - Al-Imran (The Famiy of Imran)
As for those who sell the faith they owe to God and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will God (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.
Quran clearly defines that if both the individual are unable to continure, BOTH have right to seek seperation. Unfortunately, The Nikahnama item 14 is always cut out - It spells, Does The Girl have right to divorce?
It is not media, neither it is WEST, it is the education and awareness of their RIGHTS as wife, which makes a GIRL ‘ASK’ for Seperation.
Dramatically, the culture and socio-economic structure of our society PAINT the GIRL BLACK IF she wish to stand up for HER rights.
SAD and BAD, Women are no Animals, they are humans and deserve what men believe is ONLY male previlige
ONLY Islam allows and gave women their rights as humans and elevated their respect among the males, i can continue but space is not enough here……..
well at least the comments are finally on topic…
well at least the comments are finally on topic…
@Jamal Shamsi: “ONLY Islam allows and gave women their rights as humans and elevated their respect among the males” I am not sure if you are commenting on the article or all the discussion we have had. I don’t think any one disagrees with that, the issue that I was trying to bring up was that instead of understanding and implementing our religion we are just switching ideology and moving toward a more liberal culture that looks at religion as an old relic. So trying to make it clear that Islam or Sharia is not the Issue just our own shortcomings are the reason.
@Xill-e-Ilahi“how’s that for gender equality?” depends on what standards you are using to measure equality.
@ the republic: the one that will ensure that the 14th item in the nikahnama is never cut out. i’ve read your comments man - and i agree you’re on target with the fact that its the general muslim populace that does not follow the tenets of islam to the letter and spirit while its the religion that gets the blame. what i dont understand is the passive/agressive behaviour all of the preaching types (and i don’t mean that preaching is necessarily bad) always put up when someone broaches the women’s rights thing.
that applies to everyone from the peshimam at the mosque in your neighbourhood to the self styled (and often self declared) islamic scholars to the bearded group in parliament. and that attitude makes no sense. i thought islam solved the status of women issue with the hadith that gave the mother more entitlement to respect than the father. so why are the muslim mothers, daughters, sisters and wives of today second class citizens when it comes to getting basic rights from within their religio-political-societal structure?
the point i’m trying to make and maybe i haven’t made it too well is that islam gave that right to divorce to women if the marital relationship didn’t work out. and it is the supposedly islamist society of today that works against their exercising that right. if anyone disagrees with that tell me how many qazis or maulanas or wakeels you’ve come across who encourage the girl to keep that right when she signs the nikahnama.
in any case this wasn’t meant to be a forum to debate over the intricacies of religion or beliefs. and it definitely wasn’t meant to be a place to have your beefs with each other (it hasn’t happened on this post but it has happened in the past). i’d appreciate it if the comments were kept more on topic.
peace out.
“the point i’m trying to make and maybe i haven’t made it too well is that islam gave that right to divorce to women if the marital relationship didn’t work out. and it is the supposedly islamist society of today that works against their exercising that right.” (Xill-e-Ilahi)
So called “Islamist society” of muslim men and women highly influenced by the hindu beliefs In PAKISTAN only, as divorce and divorced women are highly stigmatized (bad omen, shagoon, etc.).
I saw a music video of sajjad ali’s ( JULY)in which a girl was kept away from the wedding and pre-wedding rituals(again hindu influenc) because she had a fight with her husband and could be BURA SHAGOON for the bride to be…..and then she makes up and accepts her mistake (its always HER fault)and is thus accepted by the relatives and treated with respect again. Amazingly no one raised any issue after watching the video about the Islamic values and the status of women in Islam……, maybe becuase it depicted reality ……
The rest of the muslim world treats the issue differently and looks at it in a different light….thats why I said, its time we educate men and women before they the tie the knot (counselling) so they respect each others’ rights and in case of divorce behave maturely and handle the affairs with dignity.
saima the problem is not that the tradition derives its roots from “hindu” culture - the problem is that the “muslim” society of pakistan upholds it. not only that, its the conservative religious muslim people who actually believe in it most. so its no longer simply a “hindu” concept. it has become, by association, a “muslim” issue as the chief victim is the muslim woman.
i totally agree with your counselling idea.
At last some sane voices. I almost lost hope.
@Xill-e-Ilahi: I think I haven’t had any disagreements regarding women’s rights, I agree with both you and saima regarding this whole issue of our culture driven by hindu culture. If you thought that I brought the other issue regarding the current trend of liberalization in here because this has to do with women than I would like to make it clear that this was not the reason.
@Saima: no doubt about it, as I said before I agree with what you had to say. This mentality needs to change but my issue is not with the mentality being wrong but the way of changing it. I would prefer we change it by understanding our religion and seeing what Islam is saying about these issues and not because we want to become liberal or secular. Both routes might end up changing the mentality but the ladder might cost us our faith.
@Yahya: “At last some sane voices. I almost lost hope.” darnit I am still around ;), too bad Yahya
Ok let me try and make this clear, sorry Yahya for quoting again
4:128 Al-Nisa (Women)
“If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men’s souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practice self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.”
Now, there is no way I could go against a woman’s right to a divorce. Forget counseling, how many couples do you think know about this verse in Quran? As I said before my points were not against this issue, they were against this mentality that says that our problems will be solved if we turn to liberalization. I would prefer that we promote educating our selves about Islam and learn to do the right thing because we are Muslims. I am not trying to make my self out to be a better Muslim because I am not, I will be lucky if I can become a bad Muslim. You have no idea how lucky I feel and how thankful I am that I was born in a Muslim family and society (even thou it is not perfect) because knowing myself I know if I wasn’t I would have had no chance. This is the reason why I feel that it is important for us to build a Pakistan which is based on Islam and not on a liberal or secular ideology. There are millions of Muslim youth like me who are constantly being bombarded by negative images and are being told that it is ok to do what ever you want because you are “modern” and “educated”. I know it is the parents job to teach them right from wrong but does that mean we have no responsibilities. If we feel that it is our responsibility to change this culture that allows oppression of women than we should also take it as our responsibility to not allow another culture to develop that will lead our coming generations away from Islam.
I hope I didn’t offend anyone because I didn’t mean to. Especially you Yahya, I know I was picking on you ;) sorry bro if I said something to hurt you. It just really hurts me to see all these people going around thinking that they are becoming more civilized and educated by doing away with Haaya and Islam without even feeling guilty about it. As the Hadith says if you see something is wrong than stop it with your hand, if you can’t stop with your hand stop it with your tongue and if you can’t even do that than hate it in your hearth but know that it is the lowest form of Imaan.
“There are millions of Muslim youth like me who are constantly being bombarded by negative images and are being told that it is ok to do what ever you want because you are “modern” and “educated”.” (TheRepublicOfPakistan)
You are free to choose what you are watching and which image is true…..no one can force you to do something….there are books to read and lessons to be learn and along with negative there are positive portrayals…it is upto you to choose. Educate yourself, read literature and history ….read classical literature and see how humans have faced the same challenges and emotions and negativities for centuries…..nothings new, niether the evil nor the fight against it….but we need to be civilised in our search for the truth.
And don’t be apologetic for debating an issue, its your right to do so and ours to defend our point of view….thats how healthy societies fuction….they dicuss!!!!
@Saima: “You are free to choose what you are watching and which image is true…..no one can force you to do something”, OK if that’s the case than why care about women’s right or oppression, that should be left up to the individual, and let them choose, it should also be left up to the parents and families. Why have all of these advocacy groups trying to change people’s behavior or create awareness with regards to women’s right. Its odd that If I am saying that we need to create awareness of Islam and get people to implement Islam in there life (which will also help fix the issue of women’s oppression) than you seem to have a problem and you say it should be the parents job, and individuals choice.
PS. I was not apologizing for debating an Issue, just for unintentionally hurting some once feelings.
I guess both men and women should have a right to leave bad marriage. Of course there are consequences when something goes bad, but sadly it’s often women who suffer more in such cases. There should be laws where husband as a primary bread winner should compensate the wife for their union. In real world everything is not perfect as we know many men use Islam to marry more than one time forgetting that they need previous wife/wives permission and they need to treat them equally.
No one is asking anyone to stop the propogation of islam or for that matter any other ideology….but the right to choose…..is yours and mine…..it all depends on the kind of environment we live in….our families give us the values and the morals and society has little impact on it…..speaking from my own experience ….my ifestyle is the same …although now i live in a much liberal environment….but what my parents taught me lives with m