Teen Talwar

3T1.jpg
We all pass by the round about at least once a week.
“Iman Itehad and Tanzeem” the golden rules by the great Quaid, the concept behind “teen talwar”
But do we abide by them, any more?
Unfortunately, these buildings are just becoming buildings and the theories behind them are a history.

71 Comments so far

  1. ash (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 10:36 pm

    Excellents points saima and uzi.


  2. UZi (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 10:56 pm

    @ Adnan Siddiqi ::

    “aima,yahya/Ash are lefts liberals and often dont even believe in hadiths. Deal with them accordingly. =)”

    Where in hell’s name have you read anything about leftists not believing in Ahadith? Where, man, where? I am honestly shocked/appalled/weirded-out by your lack of knowledge (the complete absence thereof, rather) about political ideologies and policies. Honestly, people who know jack about stuff should *not* be discussing it. I am officially shocked.

    “I debated a scholar and beat him. Then I debated a layman and that layman beat me – he had no knowledge of the principles and texts. I had nothing to say” – Imam Shafi

    How true, and how ironic that you, of all the people on earth, should actually be quoting it.


  3. saima Nasir (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 10:58 pm

    @uzi
    I didn’t quote Iqbal….republic did….does anyone read the thread before commenting here or not …first adnan accused me and now you of something i never said


  4. saima Nasir (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 11:13 pm

    Uzi,

    Adnan has been informed about Jinnah and his views, ideology & lifestyle on another blog with references….read the thread on this link

    http://pakistaniat.com/2006/09/11/911-pakistan-jinnah-death/

    but he rjects it all as secularists’ conspiracy and propoganda….no need working on him….we all gave up….ab dawa nahi mareez ko dua ki zroorat hai


  5. UZi (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 11:22 pm

    Sowie! My bad! *embarrassed*


  6. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 11:27 pm

    *grin*

    How accurate Imam Sha’afi was. Awesome demonstration I just experienced. Carry on =)


  7. ash (unregistered) on November 5th, 2006 @ 11:47 pm

    Cant win the arugment? change the topic. Good strategy adnan. You aren’t a mullah lover for nothing.


  8. UZi (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 12:04 am

    Adnan miaN, it would be nice if you actually answered questions directed at you instead of trying to sneak out of the “discussion” by throwing in snide remarks. :P


  9. TheRepublicOfPakistan (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 3:55 am

    @Saima:“so much for your ARROGANCE”, I am not sure what made you think that I was referring to you as the one leading people Astray, but any ways, I think you wanted an explanation of the Ayaat and what it meant,and that is what I posted, thanks for posting the background on the Ayaat (granted that to understand some of the Ayaats you need to read it in the context, but I didn’t think that this Ayaat required you to know the context it was said under because to follow this you are not required a specific time or place). It is pretty amazing that you know the background and the kind of environment was present during the revelation of this Ayaat and can’t seem to see that the current environment toward Islam is similar in nature. 2ndly your explanation of the Ayaat is not that different from what I had said, and yes it was simple because it was already so simple and clear.

    @Ash:“Is that possible in the Islamist ideologies of our street fundo’s? Clearly not.” I am not sure if you have read Islamic History, otherwise you wouldn’t be questioning Islamic Ideology, I will grant you that in recent times we have not seen any good examples but that is not because of the Islamic Ideology but due to the people who implemented half heartedly some of the Islamic principles and did not do it completely. I am not sure if you are aware of this fact or not but it was Islam which established the first constitutional federal republic in human history, this was done at the time of the Prophet in Medina. Just as a comparison of how similar the Islamic system is, take a look at American Declaration of Independence,
    “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness —
    That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

    Now the terms for the first successor and his responsibilities:
    “I have been given authority over you but I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me, and if I do ill, then put me right. Truth consists in loyalty and falsehood in treachery. The weak among you shall be strong in my eyes until I secure his right if God will; and the strong among you shall be weak in my eyes until I wrest the right from him. If a people refrain from struggle in the way of God, God will smite them with disgrace. Wickedness is never widespread in a people but God brings calamity upon them all. Obey me as long as I obey God and His apostle, and if I disobey them you owe me no obedience.”

    @saima:“If church and state were not separated in Europe…today no muslim would be living there with the civil liberties and social welfare” hmm 1st I don’t even want to get in to this argument, because clearly you have ignored the reasons behind why is it that so many people (not just Muslims) have gone to live in the lands of the former colonizers. 2nd doesn’t that show you that Muslims didn’t need to separate religion from state to give all people there rights. I guess you like Ash have only read the history about the west and completely dismissed or failed to give credit to the Islamic societies that existed during the Caliphs. Look at the Jewish history even in there own book they proclaimed the golden age of the Jews while living under the Muslim rule in Spain and than in Turkey when Christians took over Spain and persecuted Muslims, Jews and Christians of different sects. 3rd it was you who have said that how any secular ever harmed Pakistan and naming Names with out even realizing that they were not secular to being with (at least Iqbal was not a secular which should now be crystal clear from the quotes in my last post)

    @XIA: I agree completely agree with your last post, this is why we need to stop allowing others to demonize Islam and also people who are trying to replace it with secular or liberal believes. Sadly it includes a lot of Muslim brother and sisters.


  10. saima Nasir (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 4:04 am

    Xia,

    Take time to read the thread and and what you just wrote was established ages ago on in this discussion……the question was ….who decides what faith is and do we need the endorsement of the “likes of adnan ” and now YOU to be considered FAITHFUL……but then your comment

    “the secular bitches around the world who call theselves muslims are endorsing this decision.”

    says a lot about your level of IMAN and how much you hold Mohammed(PBUH) and his teachings as your ideals………let me inform you ….Egypt(not a european country) has banned women from wearing “veil”(facial garment) in the university and their is a whole debate going on it ……lets wait for the decision…..

    now for France and germany…….they have banned the head scarf and Veil(face covering) for girls in school…..and the muslims are fighting it…..because it is a secular country ….now imagine a SECULAR BITCH in SAUDI ARABIA fighting for her right to wear a “mini skirt” as her rightful choice of clothes….what will happen ….she will die or will be asked to leave the country…..so who is better off….. yet the secular states …. where you muslims get the chance to debate and protest or your ISlamic countries which HANG you for being a traitor ??????


  11. Yahya (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 4:20 am

    @Xia

    “Well so much for European values, now muslm women and girls are banned from wearing hijab in most of the public schools in France. Germany is said to be following the course….”

    We have churches, mosques, imama baras burned or attacked and no one blinks an eye. I don’t recall a *single* mosque ever burnt in UK (and possibly western europe too) or for that matter a Hindu, Sikh or Buddh temple or any other place of worship.

    “Let’s get back to the subject. Our ideal should be Rasool Allah Sallalh Alehe Wasalaam and his companions who brought us this wonderful religion of Islam. His teachings and his practices should be the guidance to all muslims. Secular or not.”

    Agreed.

    “care and respect each others and our neighbors, regardless of their race, creed, sect or religion”

    That may be a bit difficult with all the Mullahs around trying to earn Halwa by spilling each others blood. :)


  12. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 4:33 am


    Cant win the arugment? change the topic. Good strategy adnan

    Ok ash i think you didn’t read why I can’t win from you.
    I debated a scholar and beat him. Then I debated a layman and that layman beat me – he had no knowledge of the principles and texts. I had nothing
    to say

    Yes i can’t win from you or likewise,already cleared. Go and figure. Uzi beyta you Left/right has not only association with Politics but with relgiion as well. Make a study then come to me.


  13. ash (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 5:38 am

    adnan,
    you cant win b/c you have no argument except “some mulvi said this that or the other”. Its o.k to just accept defeat over whether quaid was secular, it doesnt make you a secular just makes you truthful
    republic
    the history of the islamic POLITICAL world has culminated in women and nonmuslims being degraded, sectarian violence UNHEARD of in any other religion, lack of education, poverty and chaos.
    Ofcourse i believe islam is a great religion i am muslim just like you. I believe that its just too easy for the worst people in the world to grow beards and threaten us with the hereafter pretending to be religious and screwing us all over. This cycle of violence needs to be stopped.
    When a good leader, who is just, who is humane, pro human rights proeducation steps up then i’d support him EVEN IF HE WAS A MULLAH.
    It has never happened b/c the ones who get to the top of the political mullah totem pole are the stupid,corrupt and cruel. And we look the other way b/c we are afraid someone might doubt our faith.
    My faith is not so weak that I need to pretend to defer to these twits.


  14. saima Nasir (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 5:38 am

    Ash,Yahya&UZI,

    Don’t expect any answers from the likes of ADNAN,REPUBLICB and XIA(THE GREAT)…….because they don’t have any….they only have questions and the worst part is …they are not even serious in that….they don’t even bother to read the answer you give and …when they do read …they read it half heartedly and selectively, they don’t have the capacity to understand it because they have already decided and passed the judgement…….

    They don’t have a problem in praying behind a man(they call Imam sahib) who they hardly know and whose knowledge of islam is minimal, they don’t question him or his knowledge(or lack of it), they don’t look for the SAHIB-E-ILM and proof for his credentials as asked in ISLAM…….but love to thrash the seculars and liberals whose knowledge of Islam is better than that IMAM…….as republic said in one of his post and I quote

    “thanks for posting the background on the Ayaat (granted that to understand some of the Ayaats you need to read it in the context, but I didn’t think that this Ayaat required you to know the context it was said under because to follow this you are not required a specific time or place). It is pretty amazing that you know the background and the kind of environment was present during the revelation of this Ayaat and can’t seem to see that the current environment toward Islam is similar in nature.”

    after this reply…..i am speechless………and

    DEAR REPUBLICOFPAKISTAN,
    You said and I quote

    “3rd it was you who have said that how any secular ever harmed Pakistan and naming Names with out even realizing that they were not secular to being with (at least Iqbal was not a secular which should now be crystal clear from the quotes in my last post)”.

    All the names I gave you were liberals and secularists to the core and…….

    I named DR. IQBAL AHMED not SHAIR-E_MASHRIQ IqBAL…ever heard of him and read any of his lectures or his articles??????

    Unlike you i take time to read and analyse and implement…so don’t be amazed at my knowledge of Quran or history or literature because ” i still feel inadequate ” and therefore refrain myself from quoting Quran…which you do out of context ….and find it very simple…. but for me….. context and meaning is important.


  15. Ash (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 5:41 am

    Xia
    Ever wonder why those “bitches” agree with some westerners? maybe b/c those particular westerners treat them better? like …maybe..dont call them “bitches”?


  16. xia (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 8:48 am

    By bitches i meant poodles. it is a slang that we use around here for “khushamdis” or brownnosers. Sorry didn’t mean to say bitch in its actual sense. I would have used the word female dog. My appologies if i offended anyone.

    Egypt may be muslim cuntry, but it is worse for muslims who wants to practice their religion. I know this because i know many egyptians who can’t even grow beard out of fear of secret police. Covering of face is not mandatory and who said that egypt is a hardcore islamic country? Everything is run my a dectator.

    @Yahya: I live among kuffar and in a western, so called civilized society. I know several people who would tell you the opposite. In US, we have numerous cases of hate crimes against muslim. I can bring a list for you if you like. Msulims are killed, their mosques are burnt and they are terrorized by phone and in person. So quit bitching about mullahs. If you were here in the secular 60’s, things were worse. Ask any black old person. they would tell you how these secular values helped them or not.

    @S. Nisar: so you mean it is good if someone is fighting to wear a skirt in an islamic country. i certainly do not want women in my family running around half naked on the street. As far as right to fight, if you are asking for a right that is something insane, you should be held responsible. It is like, i go to american court and ask to marry a 14 yr old. they will not only put me in jail, but will limit my contact to outside women for good. Even though it is ok in many countries to do so. My point is that you have made a mornic statement.

    @Ash: Those bitches agree with westereners cause they want dunya instead of jannah. oh and the westerners call them worse because they know that they Own them in true literal sense. look at our government. People are getting bombed in our country by outsiders and we can’t even say that it was not our government who did it. Read Ayaz Amir’s latest column.


  17. saima Nasir (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 9:52 am

    @S. Nisar: so you mean it is good if someone is fighting to wear a skirt in an islamic country. i certainly do not want women in my family running around half naked on the street. As far as right to fight, if you are asking for a right that is something insane, you should be held responsible. It is like, i go to american court and ask to marry a 14 yr old. they will not only put me in jail, but will limit my contact to outside women for good. Even though it is ok in many countries to do so. My point is that you have made a mornic statement.(XIA)

    It is ok in islamic countries to marry 14 year old girls….and ok for men to buy girls and boys of that age for their carnal desires in underdeveloped states under the rule of dictators…….

    but the developed secular civilised states take care of the rights of men, women and children…….and thats why you CHOOSE to live in One such STATE where women run half naked or naked and yet feel safe……..where crimes take place but istead of hiding and crying in silence are reported to the police with the faith that the criminals will be nabbed, where good or bad is the choice of the person as long as it does not hurt the others and the practicing of faith is your private matter….yes…you or i won’t want our daughters or sons to go around naked but becuase they are our children we can teach them our religious and moral values,,,,,,but I don’t have a right to throw acid on the bodies of naked women as happens in the MUSLIM states and yet women are exploited and murdered……

    you may find my statement moronic because thats how your mind works….your logic is twisted……one standard for yourself and the other for the westerners and

    yet you are not ready to leave them(the secular kaffir bitches and the liberal bastards) and live with your brothers in the land of pure ……where muslim men and women live in complete harmony according to sharia law and rulers are role models and living examples of a momin….

    BTW you talk about their human rights status becauae they don’t hide the figures like muslim states….they have statistics for rape, murder and assaults and hate crime unlike your islamic states…..they try to solve them not slide them under the carpet


  18. ash (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 9:59 am

    Xia how terrible for you to live in such a bad country why do you live there? Maybe dunya is important ot you too.

    Perhaps because the society that let you in will reward you for merit, and in the society you left you’d have to be blue blood to have the same oppurtunities.

    I dont know just wondering. There must be something good about the west right? which makes you live there instead of in pakistan

    If you really think or if you are going to pretend just to keep arguing that women are not oppressed in islamic societies, that non muslims are not treated as 2nd class citizens then noone can convince you because you thoughts are just not reality based.

    Thank “religion” again for the persecution of muslims in the us,- born again christians.

    How come the west never plays poodle to us? is it because they actually evolved enough, to have a merit based society (most part) , to have a million times more religous tolerance for other religions than us, to not live in a constant state of civil war, to understand women are not dogs. And to finally sit back and see that those values of theirs have not weakened them,infact it has put them in a position of tremendous strength. Dont bother refuting that, you dont see americans lining up for pakistani visas do you.

    There are a million great things about Pakistan, but clearly we have made some big ideological mistakes why else would we be in an unstable position right now.

    Lastly, boys you think you have so much in common. Be grateful you have not declared whether you are sunni or shia or any other sect of Islam because with your hard liner attitudes you would have been at each others throats too.

    Infact i think there is no better example of how incredibly bad our “religious” leaders are. Name one other religion in current times where the sects hate and kill EACH OTHER over religion beliefs. Violence and intolerance become their own reward.

    I am not calling you guys violent. I am saying that we do not live in a world where religiously motivated people have been able to keep their practises clean after dabbling in politics. And subsequently have become the worlds worst oppressors and most violent. Thats all I am saying.


  19. xia (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 10:29 am

    @Ash: Muslims and I mean true muslims with religious values, ruled most of the world for more than 1000 years. why do you forget that. you are loking at the current events and judging muslims and their characters in general. these religious tolerence and other so called secular values are never new to muslims. infact, non muslims were safest while muslims were leaders in past.

    When Jerusalem was submitted to Caliph ‘Umar, an agreement was made between ‘Umar-and the local Christians. The agreement goes as follows:

    “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate! This is the security which grants to the people of Elia. He grants to all, whether sick or sound, security for their lives, their possessions, their churches and their crosses, and for all that concerns their religion. Their churches shall not be changed into dwelling places, nor destroyed, neither shall they nor their appurtenances be in anyway diminished, nor the crosses of the inhabitants nor aught of their possessions, nor shall any constraints be put upon them in the matter of their faith, nor shall any one of them be harmed.”

    more on this at the following website.

    http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_301_350/nonmuslims_in_muslim_history.htm

    I have my reasons to live here because an oppertunity came and I availed it. If I lived in Karachi, I wouldn’t be able to continue my studies. There is nothing wrong with going to other countries to seek knowledge and help muslims in that community. If it was not allowed to live in a foreign land, Islam would not have propagated from west of Morroco to the east of Indonesia. As far as me whining about where I live? I told you the truth. Yes it is bad here for us muslims and it is not going to get any better. and yes even it is bad here, it is much better than some muslim countries.

    do not blame muslims for what is happening around the world. Blame people like me and yourself who happen to follow islam and for all the wrongs that are happening right now. If me and only me and me before anyone else is a good muslim everything around me would get changed inshaAllah.

    West played poodle to us when we were in power. I think, I am not sure. Maybe I don’t know and I dont care. I care that my deeds in this world are good enough to land me in jannah. I do not care if someone is my poodle or not and frankly speaking, no muslim should be.

    And for the record, i follow Ehle Sunnah wa Jam3h.

    May Allah guide us all to the right path.


  20. ash (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 11:14 am

    “This is the security which grants to the people of Elia. He grants to all, whether sick or sound, security for their lives, their possessions, their churches and their crosses, and for all that concerns their religion. Their churches shall not be changed into dwelling places, nor destroyed, neither shall they nor their appurtenances be in anyway diminished, nor the crosses of the inhabitants nor aught of their possessions, nor shall any constraints be put upon them in the matter of their faith, nor shall any one of them be harmed.”

    xia
    i mentioned earlier that when a true muslim leader comes along with that sort of humanitarian ideology then i’d be quick to back them. Our “religious” leaders cant even let our own mosques survive much less anyone elses. For the record our Prophet PBUH ‘s truce with the jews of Medinah was a shining example of religious tolerance maybe even the first political one.
    Has anything in recent years from the fundos come close to those earlier values?


  21. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on November 6th, 2006 @ 6:24 pm

    Saima, I’m little bit surprised after reading so much filth you have said about me. Read it throughly as I am not willing to address you again.

    -Your claim that I am using another alias to offend you is totally nonsense. The point you used is similarities in analogies between me and that person. I’m surprised that a 30+ woman[won’t say a mature] could talk such childish things? Ok you are free not to agree with me, you are even free to refute me on any public place but you would go to that level to demonstrate your haterd against m e that you wouldn’t even think a bit what are you talking about? let me dissect your absurd statment that I am being nice on adil and on my website but not here. FYI, I have been here for one year,since oct 05 and joined as a reader to know about EQ updates. Let me tell you that i started my own blog in 2005 and resumed it back in Feb 2005. You gave the referrence of Adil’s website, let me also inform you that I was one of the few initial authors who made a guest posts on adil’s website. take a look at “bijinama”. Let me also tell you that adil najam had already referred two another posts on his website 4/5 months back. So how is it possible that I try to be nice on new websites but not on this website?

    second your claim of analogies, there re posts on my blog which are inspiration of someone else and then i used those analogies in my websites to express my words. Now it would be very stupid if someone said that posts on my site was not made by me but that particular person because I used same example therefore your claim doesn;t make any sense at all. I could be called a follower of someone but not a clone.

    You didn’t stop here, you then make another failed attempt to offend by bringing the issue of English. I never hesitated to claim what I know and how much I know but if English or any language is the only constraint of deliveriing message to others than Bush and Blair are the most intellectual and appropiate spokesmen on earth to spread intellectuality. You referred adil in your post, let me tell you that adil contacted himself once and informed me that he is/was a frequent visitor of my blog for few months and he offered me to write for ATP. WHy he did a person of like Adil say he likes my blog and offer me? Ask him. I get atleast 2 emails per month on my email in which people say that thye like to read me and encourage me to write more on topics of Pakistan ,Islam and politics and these are not ordinary layman like you. Many of them hold a good profile in different fields. See, I am not mastered in a language but still sucessful to send message successfuly though I have never written for others or fame and I’m always thankful of God that even people who don’t agree with me visit me daily and i can trace via different stats tools. I do know that even you used to visit for a long time that Jinnah thread to know updates.

    I just experienced your english talent in the form of obscene tone and it was very much entertaining. You reminded a dumb soldier who do possesses a good gun but don’t know how to use it. At the end of the day, the readers have experienced yours and that other kid’s foul language on this forum and you can’t even deny since it’s a documented proof.

    read what that ash said, one can be traced by his/her IP but since I myself do know a little bit about computers then I would certainly not believe in IP tracing since one can spoof other IP easily and If am administering a site and one complain me that some xyx IP belong to abc person then I wouldn’t blame abc anyway if I have a lil knowledg e of IP spoofing. Anyways, even If someone uses my name or even IP to use foul language, i dont care, i dont’t need to give explainations to others. If you think I have done it, ok fine keep thinking as it doesnt matter me.

    You dont look nice to advocate a ban while you yourself used similar tone. It was you who claimed to be a learne \d and mature but not that person but sorry to say you and that person were in same slot, no difference. so sorry but it’s a fact.

    Therefore, I really don’t care what you think and say about me while I know your IQ level is not more than a shoe size. You’re not worthy for me. If you have even 1% of sensibility then you wouldn’t talk things like “practising islam” to others while you just proved otherwise. You could be noticed if you would have replied politely, as it’s said “Love your enemies, they’ll hate it!”.

    Sorry I don’t have to say you further. I was not responsible to reply you anyway after reading your lunatic replies but It’s just courtesy I thought to reply you last time.

    Keep yourself engaged with like minded people like Ash and do call Hamdani here as well. You guys would give a new name to “Trinity” but don’t expect me to reply you further because there is a saying which someone just said for person like you


    Never argue with a fool – they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

    so keep talking your crap- You are free to demonstrate whatever tarbiat you have been given at home.



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