Poor little rich boy
If asked the reason for crime, the gut reaction is poverty, unemployment, illiteracy, etc. But proving all of those wrong, the scion of a wealthy industrialist was finally caught after embarking on an orgy of theft and looting. The reason? “Crime is an art”. I’m just glad that Karachi has one less teenager drunk on his family’s power to worry about.
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Sad how power plays out in this city…
…..where are “encounters” when you need them?
He is right. Crime is an Art and we shall all see how he will prove his artistic skills and get away from the law.
May be we need to ban Hollywood & Punjabi or may be pashto films which show too much of this Art and these kid try to copy them.
“The party was taken to the police station and Junaid was seated in the SHO’s office while the other three men were put in a cell for questioning”
Another reason why might makes its right! Damn you Niccolo Machiavelli!!!
“The entire scene was witnessed by a man in his own car. He called the police at 15 and informed them of the incident and followed the men in the black car. ”
Good samaritans! It should give us hope..not all is lost.
Hats off to the guy who took time and made an effort to inform the police.
this sounds like a crazy movie. I hope this guy gets a fitting punishment that would be the really original part of it.
umm.. no comments
first of all, lets hope that guy was not identified at any level who helped police =)
2ndly.. i doubt any serios action would be taken up against this boy.. im sure he can afford a good lawyer and then maybe buy a few judges
Though I am all against Talibanization, but sometimes I wish that we can come up with a system where persons like him, can be punished in public.
But then again ‘that system’ like all system will certainly be abused.
well rich people with mucho money always get away with it. if that doesnt work then he can always claim that he was being framed by someone. there was this unrelated case where a guy was accused of assault and he claimed that someone was wearing a mask to look him. (yeah right where will a person find the technology to look like someone else. its not as if life is mission impossible)
He truly looks like a ‘gunda’.
now why would a guy like that want to commit petty crime? for money? doesn’t his dad have enough so he can go to to switzerland and live a life of luxury instead of bothering us?
i read this same story in dawn, but since daily times publshed a picture of the guy, i’ll be on the lookout for him when i go perusing gizri and defence…he looks like a moron.
Some how people should try and keep this in the Media, because as soon as people stop looking he is going to get away with it. In Dawn they say the name of the Father is Asad Abbas and Daily Times says they live in Defence Phase V. They shouldnt be too hard to find. I say we stone the guy to death if he gets away with it.
But seriously the public should make his family feel further humiliation. any ideas on how to do that?
its just one spoilt kid they’ve nabbed… i guess there are dozens upon dozens more… on orkut if you might have noticed many of em are proudly displaying their mobiles along with pistols and TTs
Reading from the story it appears that he worked as a bully in a gang. Alone he might be chicken s***. It does boggle me as to why a rich kid would commit petty theft. He calls it art, i think he is disconnected with reality and is possibly not trained for empathy by his rich parents.
Dont wanna sound holier or mightier than thou but i feel really sad whats happened to our city, as fars as crime is concerned. If we take DHA only where i was born & raised, this was NOT the neighbourhood that its become today.
Growing up i met and played with very cultured people who knew (how to behave themselves). Alas, gone are those days and now all we see in DHA & Clifton are ‘NEW DAULATYAS‘ … who seem to be drunk on money or power AND HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHATSOEVER, HOW TO ‘BEHAVE’ IN PUBLIC. Just the other day this guy stepped out of his Pajero (guards sitting with TT’s at the back) and shouted ‘Why did you not manouver your car ‘out of my way’”.
Just goes to show … that money does not buy class or civility. I sometimes tell my folks we should shift back to KDA. A much better neighbourhood in comparison.
Well what do you know!
After seeing his picture in the Daily Times (for which i thank The Karachi Metroblog) it dawned upon me that i too have been Mr. Junaid Abbas’s victim. Yesterday’s Daily Dawn had printed his name.
I have no cell-phone to claim, though i did lose some cash from my wallet. The incident took place over a month ago at Gizri where i had gone to a shop & was faced by Mr. Junad Abbas who entered the shop with a TT in his hand. I hid my mobile phone but 2 other guys in the shop were robbed, one of them beaten for resisting. The shop owner also lost some cash. This guy is dangerous & should be punished as its known he has several hundred incidents of cell-phone snatchings under his belt!
DAWN, KARACHI, Nov 13:
Police on early Monday morning arrested a son of an industrialist for his alleged involvement in mobile phone snatchings following a shootout on Shaheed-i-Millat Road.
Educated at the Lawrence College in Ghora Gali and the British School, Junaid Abbas, 19, son of Asad Abbas, has up to 200 acts of cellphone snatching to his name, said SHO Aurenzeb of the Ferozabad police station. The snatchings had been carried out since April, he added.
Explaining the circumstances that led to his arrest, the SHO said Junaid deprived some people of their cellphones in the DHA area on late Sunday night.
The complainants informed the police helpline 15 about the incident. The suspects could not be found in the DHA, but over an hour later they were spotted at the Tariq Road intersection of Shaheed-i-Millat Road by a police party.
Following a shootout the suspects were arrested by the Ferozabad police.
They were identified as Junaid Abbas, Altaf, Munir and Rashid. Four TT pistols and 35 cellphones were seized from them, the SHO said.
Munir and Rashid have several cases of murder and possession of illegal arms registered against them at Korangi and Zaman Town police stations.
Junaid owns a floor mill in the Site area where he hired security guards and used them in cellphones snatching.
They also used to dump the cellphones in the flour mill.
karachi, nov 13: police on early monday morning arrested a son of an industrialist for his al- leged involvement in mobile phone snatchings following a shootout on shaheed-i-millat road. educated at the lawrence college in ghora gali and the british school, junaid abbas, 19, son of asad abbas, has up to 200 acts of cellphone snatching to his name, said sho aurenzeb of the ferozabad police station. the snatchings had been carried out since april, he added. explaining the circumstances that led to his arrest, the sho said junaid deprived some peo- ple of their cellphones in the dha area on late sunday night. the complainants informed the police helpline 15 about the incident. the suspects could not be found in the dha, but over an hour later they were spotted at the tariq road intersection of shaheed-i-millat road by a po- lice party. following a shootout the sus- pects were arrested by the fero- zabad police. they were identified as ju- naid abbas, altaf, munir and ra- shid. four tt pistols and 35 cell- phones were seized from them, the sho said. munir and rashid have sever- al cases of murder and posses- sion of illegal arms registered against them at korangi and za- man town police stations. junaid owns a floor mill in the site area where he hired securi- ty guards and used them in cell- phones snatching. they also used to dump the cellphones in the flour mill.
This criminal must be hanged,
2.5 million were offered by his dad right away to that SHO.. offcourse he must have offered 25 million by now to highups in govt and the matter would have been all hushed up and all the blame shifted on those 3 guards and the spoilt brat flown out of the country and settled in west…. i know this has happened in past in similar cases and seems like it’ll be the same in this case too…
I blame parents who couldnt teach this guy to dissociate movies from reality.
Junaid sent to jail (as police accused) of foul play
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\11\15\story_15-11-2006_pg12_2
In the Daily Times article, if you look at the photo , the guys T shirt reads ” Scored Last Night”, and he is in jail i betcha it wasnt him but his jailmate.
“We found out that he was being treated by an AKU psychiatrist about a year ago,” said TPO Jamshed Quarter Sultan Khwaja
as i said in my earlier comment, the family is smart and they’ll get this kid freed in no time.. its just the amount of thats the bone of contention here once its settled and agreed then this boy is out in no time..
Ahem.
The “privilege” of being rich exists only in our head. It seems to most of us, and admittedly to myself still, that being rich is some kind of ticket to elimination of all problems. To cut a very long theory short, I believe there is a “critical point” for material resources and the social status that comes with it. If one is below that critical point, they are really in need of help and their actions are driven by pathological problems. Hunger, disease, illiteracy, and no access to freedom of opinion are the hallmarks of being below that threshold. These are people who truly are exempt from the usual explanations and therefore, punishments. For them, the law must bend because they are the result of the society’s neglect.
Above that threshold, a person may still be not very rich, or very rich… but they all have problems according to their own situation. They all equal in the eyes of law.
BUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THIS: Just like we give no excuse to the rich for such desperate crime, we can give no excuse to the poor. Social scientists and workers and thinkers would, as Cy mentions, quickly see causes such as poverty and desperation as triggers of crime. But that’s a no-brainer.
How about the rich? How about a kid who had no choice to be born in a rich household - just like no one chose to be born poor?
Ethics and corrections and the support of the society must be awarded to all its members. I feel very deeply that we are not, as a society, helping any of our members. And we readily award the “You are evil” decree to anyone.
Look at ourselves - mostly middle-class readers of this site. Do we take any account of the gross negligence, social non-participation, and outright wrongs that we committ? Many of us regularly disrespect the law.
Continued…
Continued from previous…
When I had left this site as a writer - tired of the silly abusive posts that I couldn’t even remove in the name of “free speech” (a concept most of us may not even have read formally) - I thought long and hard. I thought that with the kind of behavior that was shown, also by me, what could we learn? I created a fantasy scenario where I and the readers were born in the “underprivileged” section of the society. And I couldn’t imagine what would we have done, given that illiteracy and more “free time” would have probably driven us to some kind of mob behavior.
Yet again, I also saw this behavior in the rich people I have studied and worked with.
Conclusion: it’s a human trait, and little to do with the amount of money people have. To see this man’s problem as only an issue of wealth is wrong. In fact, I believe his problem is just what is the problem of poor kids: TOO MANY RESOURCES, AND NOTHING TO DO. Rich ppl have money, poor ppl have time. And we all burn it.
No human society anywhere will progress unless ALL its members are actively involved in its development. How many of us, when we meet a rich person, invite them to do something productive or good, and not instead worry about “how can I get a car like theirs?”
I invite us all to pause and reflect for a few moments. The human society will keep on suffering if it doesn’t realize the relative importance of all its constituents.
In simpler words: everyone - rich, poor, man, woman, artist, scientist, critic, designer, philosopher, businessperson, idle thinker, sweeper, beautician, policeman, doctor, teacher, religious scholar, child, youth, adult, disabled, sportsperson, insects, reptiles, plants, worms, sun, moon - HAVE THEIR OWN PART TO PLAY. We cannot survive without any of those. Which logically means that all and any of these are USEFUL.
It is strange how we spend the best of our time and energy blaming and ridiculing those who are not who we are. And even those who are like ourselves! It’s like the foot blaming the nose for not walking, and the nose sulking at the knee for not sneezing out the germs.
Look again at all the above types of humans and things I have listed, and you can recall how each and everyone of these have been blamed for all ailments.
Men are bad. Women are bad. Children are stupid. Youth are careless. Artists are losers. Thinkers are useless. Businesspersons are wicked. Sweepers are lowly. Disabled are burdensome. Active people are aggressive. Religious scholars are mad. Reptiles are creepy. The sun is too hot. The winter is too cold. Poor people are criminals. Rich people are carefree.
Only “I” am right.
OPEN YOUR MINDS.
BTW, I don’t this man should be left off the hook. The crimes have been done. Junaid Abbas must face the consequences and I sincerely hope that his wealth does not change law’s mind. That he has been caught and that someone dared report him, and the police held him are positive signs. Given the misery, fear, and poverty in which many of our law-enforcing police officers live themselves, this is a very courageous deed.
What I have written above is our “food for thought” in general and for future.
I also hope, for the good of the society, that given that this young man has indeed a lot of resources and obvious “talent” put to an ill use, that he is counselled. Unless he has killed someone, he is going to live. He should not carry on as a criminal, but a reformed man. He must be given that chance.
His mind may be sick, but those with healthy minds must seek healthy solutions.
Thank you for thinking.
Come one guys its time to get up. Everyone please take the time out this saturday or sunday and go to Ferozabad Police station to show your support to hang this ahole. Especially Imran, you are an eye witness you should come forward. It is a bit risky but come on is it any riskier then walking down your street with this guy on the loose. We keep blaming the system but we never do anything ourselves. We are to blame if this guy gets away no one else.
By the way where is Ferozabad police station?
Why should the guy be hanged?? did he kill anyone??
More on the condition of the sob:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7956/179ck4.gif
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2957/0212go4.gif
Who said he should be hanged? His face should be put on display in every newspaper and TV and he should be jailed for atleast a year with forced labor. Lets see then how much art he produces. Hopefully before that some one will turn his behind into an art form too in the jail.
To even arrest him took integrity that honestly i didnt even think the police had. I am very happy to have been wrong.
@Ramla A.
You seem to have a wonderful knack of confusing yourself.
you said, “BUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THIS: Just like we give no excuse to the rich for such desperate crime, we can give no excuse to the poor. Social scientists and workers and thinkers would, as Cy mentions, quickly see causes such as poverty and desperation as triggers of crime. But that’s a no-brainer.
How about the rich? How about a kid who had no choice to be born in a rich household - just like no one chose to be born poor?”
Although later, you advocted the need, to be a responsible citizen and a society, which supports the positive contribution of an individual, regardless of his/her social status.
Now, criminals are people, who make irresonsible choices! Which brings us to the discussion of ‘rich’ choosing to commit crimes.
No one chooses to be born poor or rich, but ,when one is born rich and has been brought up in a previleged environment, one has a greater responsibility of being grateful and thankful to those luxuries, instead of taking it for granted and wasting it(as in case of this young man).
you ‘cannot discard’ the hunger, lack of basic education and civic amenities, as triggers to crime, as a “no-brainer”. It is a reality, which the psychologists and social scientists have proved through some very carefully designed experiments, carried out, over a number of years.
Yes, the society should help to create an environment and a system where criminals are reformed and rehabilitated, but the ‘rich and powerful’ need to take the FIRST STEP. They have a bigger responsibility because of their access, to resources and to the policy makers, until then the categorisation and the blame game will continue.
It is always a bigger deal, when a resourceful person commits a crime, because unlike the poor who have no time to look at their emotional and spiritual state(they are too busy “surviving”), the rich have the luxury, to do so.
This “rich kid” was already given a chance by the NATURE to do something positive in life, he got ‘another chance or chances’ after every robbery, he committed. For him, the thrill never ended, the trauma he caused to the families never bothered him, infact gave him the sadistic pleasure and ‘a high’, he was looking for, while taking his life of luxury, for granted.
Unlike him, so many poor kids, are never given a ’second chance’ or a even a FIRST CHANCE, to a life of adequate food, shelter, basic education and SELF ESTEEM.
He, like any other criminal should get a chance to reform, but he definitely, doesn’t deserve the sympathies of any society, especially ours, where the biggest and boldest crimes are committed by, or under the patronage, of the RICH and POWERFUL.
@Syed and Sa’ad
I am the one who keeps saying he should be hanged. Its people like him that have held people up on gun point for a few rupees and a phone. Its people like him who have shot their victims when they resisted. I dont know if he has shot any one himself and I am sure even if he has no one will be able to prove it.
Just imagine if this guy or his gang had held up your family, your sister or your mother or he had beaten up your father or brother when they resisted.
I say hanging is being too lenient, but I cant think of anything else.
He should be hanged to make an example of him.
i don’t consider hanging some one to be a harsh punishment for the criminal.. the pain just ends within minutes…
in this case hanging this kid is not a proper thing… i think we should have a reform system in our jails like in west where sick people like him should be treated and atleast they should try to make him a better person… coz once he is back on streets after finishing his term he could be 10x more dangerous coz of the current environment of our jails
Laws and Lawyers of this country !! =D
@ Doctor
Come on yar what you are talking about is not going to happen in this country for atleast 20-30 years. and the reason you give abt him being more dangerous after jail is just another reason to hang him.
Any criminal who has ever threatened a life with the intent of killing if required to, should be hanged, because he can do it.
@ d0ct0r & @Concerned
I would like to live in that utopia where bad people go to a correction facility and are corrected, not punished, corrected and assimilated back into the society as productive beings. I also would like to live in a society without death penalty as i don’t believe individuals have a right to take life away. Yes he is a bad character and a criminal. He must pay for his crimes, he must also be taught a lesson, he also be given counseling and a chance to turn himself better. Yes he is a SOB but a human SOB and must be given a chance to show his humanity.
Saima:
Before I say more, here is my stand on Junaid: if he has murdered, he must face the consequences (death sentences/ Qisaas & daet - whatever). If the punishment for his crimes is 10 or 29 or 56 years of jail sentence, he must serve it. If he has to pay 350 million in fines and charges, he must. In fact, if “the Saudi punishment” were to be given in PK, then so will have to be it.
And that’s the WHOLE PURPOSE of punishment: to close the account, and let an individual move on. That is why, in Islamic laws, only unforgivable crimes are awarded the death penalty. But I digress.
My concern is lesser for Junaid, who is a criminal, and more for the society, which may have many more such persons amongst its folds.
Continued…
Continued from above…
Now. Saima, I agree with you in principle. Your concern and incredulousness at this crime is justified. I only want to fish out and critically examine some automatic assumptions that are fed into our psyches.
This is what I am reading between the lines (overall, not just Saima’s):
Assumption #1. Being rich means an automatic access to an understanding of ethics, morals, good behavior, good citizenship, and wrong or right. (Which ethical system states that an individual can’t seek correction for himself just because he was rich?)
Assumption #2. The “society” must look up to the rich to solve their problems. (My question: must NOT the society - which includes rich and poor, btw - pressure the privileged? Or must they be assumed to be above all crime?)
Assumption #3. With great money comes great spiritual understanding.
Assumption #4. Rich kids were brought up very well, and had the perfect choice and understanding. They, therefore, deserve no help from the larger society. (And, unchecked by the society, they may become a menace any time?)
No further comments on the above.
On the one hand, Saima, we believe that “the ‘rich and powerful’ need to take the FIRST STEP.” On the other hand, human experience over centuries shows - from examples of persons like Nero to Marie Antoinette - that “the biggest and boldest crimes are committed by, or under the patronage, of the RICH and POWERFUL.” So shall we invite people with a tendency to create boldest and biggest crimes to take the first step? Or is it better to have all hands, rich and poor, on board?
Look at the history of Islam; the Qur’an states that it was the poor and the weak who first accepted “the message” (which is why many arrogant tribal leaders of Makkah refused to join the group). It was the weak and the poor who brought about social change.
Social change is neither the duty nor the exclusive property of the rich. Indeed, when the rich start deciding how things are run, they often create tyranny. You will have to look through history with a microscope to find examples of humane rich people. And I don’t want to blame the rich, I think these things happen because we tend to not step out of our circles and many of us genuinely don’t know what the world’s like outside our sphere of existence.
My point is: ethics and morality are not the exclusive domain of any salary or wealth range. Nor is criminal thinking. That is why, not only the society must be fair in doling out punishment, but the society must also have (pre-emptive) reformative plans for EVERYONE.
The very privileged have gone unchecked for a long time, just because we (rich, middle, poor) are assuming, perhaps without realizing, that:
1. their education and travel and exposure means automatic nirvana and humane-nity
2. the society must wait for the rich to create reform, and not actively involve them in social change
Bottomline: no auto-pilot thinking. Rather, proactive thinking.
Correction. I said “You will have to look through history with a microscope to find examples of humane rich people.”
It’s come out wrongly worded. The correct statement is: “You will have to look through history with a microscope to find examples of rich people who started positive social change, driven by humane feelings.”
There have indeed been many fine and good-hearted rich people. But the rich don’t tend to take the first step for uplifting the society for a simple reason: our mind tends to see only our reality unless shocked out of it. And the rich, having not been exposed to pain of desperation, may not be self-driven to uplift the society.
I do believe, however, that once charged with the duty to share in the development of the society, anyone - rich or poor or middle-class - will participate, if only by helping themselves. I.e. A poor person will come to free medical camp (and make the world one sick person-lesser, therefore BETTER) if the camp is set up. Even by freeing the society of the burden of a sick person (by gaining health) these people are doing a favor.
Junaid’s problem is not just because he’s rich. If we step back, we can see he shares a problem with all youth of all social classes in Pakistan: NOTHING TO CREATIVELY SPEND YOUR YOUTHFUL ENERGY ON. Remember the jinie in Arabian Nights? The one who was ordered by his master to fetch water in a sieve because the jinie had more energy than the master had tasks. Result: unproductive activity for the jinie.
Solution: GIVE THE YOUTH SOMETHING TO DO. Involve them at school and university level in social development/ volunteering/ entrepreneurship projects. Direct their energies towards positive use which is not limited to making more money (our society’s standard definition of success at ALL social status levels) but being better humans in thought and action.
Example: Joe Opatowski, former juvenile delinquent, reformed social activist/volunteer and youth leader. Died young, left a great legacy behind. http://www.metowe.org/community/story-joe-opatowski.html
Closer home: I met a rather aggressive “leader type” in PAF museum last year on EQ time. I needed a 100 volunteers the next day to send to MKRF. Someone introduced us, and he listened to me, a total stranger, and within five minutes got on the phone. Next day, he had a 100 volunteers. And I can tell that he would scare me on a normal day as a gangster type. Indeed, many of the awara youth of that time are now operating their own youth groups.
We must not create an environment which nurtures criminals. In the end, whoever the criminal is, it is us - everybody, rich or poor - who stand the lose at the wrong end of a gun.
@RAMLA A.,
Read my post carefully, I said that since rich people have more resources and power, the society doesn’t forget or forgive their mistakes easily, and rightly so, as their excuses are not as valid as that of a poor person. There are no assumptions here, just reality.
Now for the assumptions, that you have mentioned above in the post, here are the reasons , as to why me, people or a society in general hold those assumptions;
According to you,
“Assumption #1. Being rich means an automatic access to an understanding of ethics, morals, good behavior, good citizenship, and wrong or right. (Which ethical system states that an individual can’t seek correction for himself just because he was rich?)”
No, not automatic! But, it is expected of the rich, that since they have access to better facilities in education and living standards, they will be less worried about the day to day frustrations at every level, faced by an average person. They don’t have ‘valid reasons’ for committing crimes and for corruption, like hunger, lack of health care, low social standing, etc. Therefore, they have more time for self analysis,self correction and a’better chance’ of leading a fulfilled life.
You said,
“Assumption #2. The “society” must look up to the rich to solve their problems. (My question: must NOT the society - which includes rich and poor, btw - pressure the privileged? Or must they be assumed to be above all crime?)”
Every religion and civilization has placed ‘bigger’ responsiblity on the RICH and THE PRIVILEGED, to design and develop a system, where the less fortunate are taken care of.
Since you mentioned, the beginning of Islam , let me assure you that, although it was the poor who joined the forces with the Prophet(PBUH) initially(as the rich were arrogant and cruel), it caught momentum when the rich and authoritative figures (HAZRATH UMAR& HAZRATH USMAN) joined the movement. Prophet himself, belonged to the ruling tribe of the time….and hence, the example for the rich and resourceful to lead a life of compassion and responsibility.
Zakat was imposed on the rich and so was the ‘duty’ to look for the needy!
You also said,
“Assumption #3. With great money comes great spiritual understanding. ”
No, it is not assumed that it comes automatically, but, it is expected , since RICH have resources, have better education, teachers and institutions. They have access to good environment, where their worldly & physical needs are met rather adequately, that, they would pay more attention to their spiritual needs. Unlike a ppor man, who first has to provide for his physical needs and then would get the chance to look at his emotional and spiritual needs. If all the resources,exposure and education cannot change them for better, NATURE will punish them eventually, whether society does or not.
Another statement, you made,
“Assumption #4. Rich kids were brought up very well, and had the perfect choice and understanding. They, therefore, deserve no help from the larger society. (And, unchecked by the society, they may become a menace any time?)”
Again, let me say, it is not assumed, but expected that if people have resources, they will utilise those resources , for the betterment of their children and then, the society.
Rich or poor, both have the responsibility to provide good moral and religious education and upbringing to their offspring…but who do you think has a better chance of doing so?…Think.
What I understand, from your post is that, you want the less privileged section of the society to involve the rich in the productive activity …but what do you think is Edhi, Imran Khan ( thru cancer hospital), The Citizen Foundation and many other such organization are doing….they are asking for the participation of the rich and the influential….if the same imploring is done on an individual level, one turns into a beggar.
Now , I agree, that no one can or should use poverty as an excuse for committing crimes. The society should have a support system to educate and rehabilitate the offenders. Every member of the society should play his/her part responsibly, towards bringing about a positive social change, but these are all ideals, wonderful and beautiful. But until, they are achieved , we have to live within the existing system, where THE RICH HAVE A BIGGER RESPONSIBILITY, and probably will always have , as the nature intended it as well.
Historically, when rich people fulfilled their duties and showed compassion for the less privileged, people treated them like gods and godesses-Buddha & in recent history Princess Diana. When they didn’t, they were slaughtered like animals -(Marie Antoinette & the Rusian Zars)- Thus, the bigger the position or status of a person, the greater and stronger the reation of the public, depending upon the action of that rich person.
In recent time, Bill Gates and Waren Buffett and many others have displayed great responsibilty, they feel, towards the less fortunate….they have taken the first step.
The rich have always taken a first step in the civilised societies and when they haven’t, we have seen the nasty revolutions, you mentioned in your post.
Saima.
I think we are in agreement, because I never asked the society to forgive the rich.
AND, BTW, I wonder what it means that the poor have a “valid excuse?” Don’t the rich technically also have a “valid excuse” - i.e. “crime is an art.” Incidentally just a couple of days before I heard about Junaid, me & bro were watching an elaborate episode of MythBusters prepping guns and ammo. And I asked my brother if this wasn’t similar to one of those Taliban videos?
… As for expectations….well! isn’t that what I’m saying, these are assumptions/ expectations. LEt’s sit and wait for expectations to be met?? Shall we?
Dear Saima,
It is, of course, true that the rich have better access to education/exposure/books/Internet. It is, however, only an assumption that this education is also the right kind of education.
I am not, not, not, not, not saying that the rich should wriggle their way out of punishment. I am saying that the education that we have access to DOES NOT tecah us to be compassionate. And what else do we need but Mr. Junaid and the likes of him as a proof? He is not the only rich spoilt kid. Certainly, something is very wrong.
Now we have a choice. Either we passively “Expect.” Or we actively “act.” I say, ACT. And all I am saying is, that the correct action is NOT TO PUNISH INDIVIDUALS, but to correct the society that produces such gems. Why isn’t our society producing Bill Gates and Warren Buffets and Sir Richard Branson, Saima? That is the question. (There’s no one answer, but it’s apparant that our current ideas and expectations and assumptions are just not working.)
BTW “Not to punish inidividuals” means that it is not a solution, though of course a crime has to be punished. What I mean is that, instead of killing flies, remove the garbage. (The former “burn them out” is the infamous George Bush approach towards Iraq/ Afghanistan. The results are for all to see.)
And now, as for Islam and other balanced ethical systems: they neither put the “responsibility” on the rich, nor on the poor. Neither on children, nor on adults. Neither on men, nor on women. Neither on the capitalist, nor on the employee. Exclusively, i.e. THE ISLAMIC ETHICAL SYSTEM PUTS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CHANGE ON EVERY SHOULDER. That is why, the rich/happy/privileged/healthy are to be in a state of “gratitude” and the poor/unhappy/underprivileged/ailing in “patience.” That is why rights and duties are for everyone, though their NATURE is different for each according to their status, psyche, capability.
Summary:
1. Our assumptions are nothing but expectations, to meet which, we have worked out no mechanism. Result = jis ki laathi, uss ki bhains. We are only left with the power to comment endlessly on news and blog sites. What else?
2. If we expect something from someone, we are only reacting to them. And are on their mercy.
3. ALL youth… Rich, poor, men, women, urban, rural, MUST BE ENGAGED IN PRODUCTIVE ACTIVITIES.
It is the society’s collective responsibility, and one that lies with teachers and law-makers and social architects, NOT THE RICH.
4. And oh, richness is one of the most spiritually testing state: All in your lap, and nothing to motivate you. Hunger isn’t driving you; you can buy food, clothes, health, teachers. People flock you for your car, and not your goodness. Why on earth would a rich mind even BEGIN TO THINK that there is need for change? Aren’t our magazines and news full of the otherwise extravagant lifestyles of the rich?
What should we choose? Look at reality, or expect that the rich will somehow want to give that up? Where is the motivation?
Unless the rich are in a society that charges them with the responsibility of creating jobs/ helping the underpriviliged/ share the good/ etc., they have little motivation to change. And I don’t blame them if some of them never even got to know what the real world is like, just because they are insulated, and because everyone on the outside is thinking they can see the world from their palace. (Dramatic, but that’s the point.)
Saima, we are on the same page but talking from two different angles. You are saying that action is expected of the resourceful. And I am saying that to make sure they take that action, the society as a whole has to be condusive.
Let’s not blame the rich for being rich. What were we doing when they were getting rich without paying it forward? How many of us have really, actually, ever DONE something to change a rich person’s heart? Actually held a conversation with at least one brat and told them there is something larger to do in life without blaming them for beign born rich. And instead kindly opening their eyes to what they can do?
I am not shooting from the hip either. My family has become a veteran at being robbed since 2001, when we lost most of our possessions in a robbery. We’ve lost several cells to gun-point snatching, recently had our car advance gulped down by a party we can’t take to court (they rather set the police on us) and my brothers have lost count of stuff stolen from our cars/ money snatched aat the door - all within the past two years.
But I want to make a choice: do we run after criminals who will keep slipping away anyway? Or do we make our lives safer, better while gaining good citizens by involving EVERYONE, esp the youth, in good work? And taking other necessary actions? Or shall we take the George Bush route to brutally kill a problem when it’s absolutely out of hands?
My choice is very clear. I don’t want to live in a society where I am perpetually unsafe. And where the best choice I have is to try to take down the trolls. Why? Why shouldn’t I rather spend my time on something creative? Why should I live in paranoia?
Rather than follow each fly that chooses to set itself upon me, I would pick the garbage.
“The rich have always taken a first step in the civilised societies and when they haven’t, we have seen the nasty revolutions, you mentioned in your post.”
:)
Nope, not the rich. Not just the rich.
Instead the thinkers, the scientists, the artists, the social architects, teachers, peasants, sons and daughters of hardworking men, sons and daughters of abusive fathers - the whole gamut.
A few social change agents:
Prophet David (unprivileged, weak. Vis-a-vis the resourceful Goliath). Prophet Solomon (rich). Prophet Moses (oft-quoted in the Qur’an for his impoverishment vis-a-vis the king Pharoah). Prophet Muhammad (noble, but not wealthy. He started first, and THEN was helped by resourceful individuals such as Bibi Khadija, Hazrat Usman, et al.). Peace be upon them all. Benjamin Franklin. Nelson Mandela. Mother Teresa. Lady Diana (the un-royal royal). Dr. Abdul Sattar Edhi (illiterate). Iqbal (highly educated philosopher). Jinnah (man of action, suffering from physical ailment). Gandhi. Rachel Carson. Thomas Edison. Florence Nightingale (rich). Bill Gates (rich). Steve Jobs (unwanted son of teen mother - adopted by parents with little resources for his college education). Brothers Marc & Craig Kielburger (Middle class. Grandparents poor. Craig was a child of 12 when he started a global movement against child labor from his home). Stephen Covey (teacher/ trainer).
Bottomline: No, the rich, alone, do not bring change. People who don’t take no for an answer, people who look beyond stereotypes, people who form and test their own hypotheses rather than what society feeds into their brains bring about meaningful social change.
Life is more varied that simplistic answers.
We are conditioned into thinking that there is only one unique solution to a problems across times and regions. We must challenge notions fed into our heads, see if they are true or not, break the stereotypes, think with our own minds, and find new solutions.
@RAMLA A.
You said,
“Why isn’t our society producing Bill Gates and Warren Buffets and Sir Richard Branson, Saima? That is the question. (There’s no one answer, but it’s apparant that our current ideas and expectations and assumptions are just not working.”
Who said our society is not producing philanthropists, they are just not, as big, as the names mentioned above, niether is our country as rich as theirs’.
TCF was a brainchild of some very successful men, who wanted to give back to the society. Shaukat Khanum and Kidney centre, is again run by the very established and successful people, and there are several other examples, within our society.
You said,
“And now, as for Islam and other balanced ethical systems: they neither put the “responsibility” on the rich, nor on the poor. Neither on children, nor on adults. Neither on men, nor on women. Neither on the capitalist, nor on the employee. Exclusively, i.e. THE ISLAMIC ETHICAL SYSTEM PUTS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CHANGE ON EVERY SHOULDER. That is why, the rich/happy/privileged/healthy are to be in a state of “gratitude” and the poor/unhappy/underprivileged/ailing in “patience.”
Every society and religion places MORE burden and resposibility, on the shoulders of the rich and able bodied people.
Islam has made Zakat and Haj compulsory for the rich people and both are mode of prayers and considered among the pillars of Islam, thus, more chances of gaining spirituality…..why do you think is it so? ….. Income tax, wealth tax and many other taxes are for the rich and the privileged of the society, nobody raises an eyebrow or even think that it is unfair….why don’t we have the same laws for everyone?
In your own words,
“That is why rights and duties are for everyone, though their NATURE is different for each according to their status, psyche, capability.”
Notice the word, you choose here,STATUS…..
I never said poor are free of responsibility or above or below the law, they are just not “as responsible” as the rich….
The society is not going to design specialised programmes for the” rich brats “to be productive and to channelise their creativity, they themself have to make an effort to support the people with in this system, more so, because they have time and resources to do so.
Dear RAMLA A.,
It was a wonderful exchange of ideas, thoughts and a learning experience. Like any other topic, this issue has many layers and thus as many solutions and opinions. On a superficial level though, I feel , I have expressed my ideals and expectations and don’t want to repeat myself…….but we are Free to Agree to Disagree….until some new thoughts occur…..AU REVOIR.
i wonder why i came back to Pakistan… anyways i strongly disagree with all those MillIons of words being wasted on this topic apart its freedom of speach, the point which i don’t think anybody came up with and yes i am surprized too why this story is being so much Highlighted ? a lot happens daily this is not the first time that a gang or a BOy who’s doing these sort of activities are being caught ? since this Kid belongs to a rich family and specailly he lives somewhere in DHA Phase V and used to snatch and rob around DHA so he’s the Center of attention… i bet if something like this had happened somewhere in Korangi or may b in Naziamabad area nobody would have even read it.. so the point is all the ppL out their why we are only focusing on one area of Karachi specially DHA, what if he wasn’t from DHA ?
Saima:
I have thought about what you read in my initial posts, and I conceed on one thing: an actively sympathetic approach must not be taken towards Junaid. Nor indeed to any criminal. This is how fairness and justice was administered in any civilised society. My words were sympathetic towards Junaid - because I am always shocked to see youth gone bad. However, I never said he should not be punished. I am only thinking why we are so quick on judgment, when we are showing remarkably insignificant work on constructing a good society?
Ok, let’s not talk about Junaid. The same “Kill them” judgments have been passed at the Lahore mob which ruined Mall Road earlier this year. At that time, being “jahil” was the fault of the criminal. Can we get above and beyond stereotypes? Because all I am saying is that if a certain class has problems because they are that class, then all humanity would be in hell because ALL types and categories of humans are blamed by those not like them.
Second just a minor correction, I said “status, psyche, capability” not just status. What I have been saying throughout is that status is not the only determinant of a person’s behavior. Nor should they be judged on that alone.
I agree that we have charitable rich persons who are giving back to the society. Actually the problem of the behavior of the rich is without frontiers. In all regions, from the west, to mid east, to east - the rich are varied in their social behavior. However, we live in this society and can see for ourselves the overall behavior of the privileged which do not such include the “rich.” I myself have been making a lot of assumptions about those both above and below me on any kind of ladder: of wealth, beauty, health, any gift. Time teaches that humanity and human traits (good or bad) cross these barriers.
Finally, it is amusing that we are active mostly in passing judgment.
There are three parts to a society, in this order:
1. DESIGN - constitution
2. EXECUTIVE - implementation
3. JUDICIARY - check & balance. Critical examination of progress/execution/limits crossed/potential created. Administering REWARDS and PENALTIES.
And finally the feedback loop takes the process back to the DESIGN stage. Hence the human society is organic and evolutionary. Indeed there is no such thing as a “first step.” There is only a step, or the lack of it.
Of all these functions, the Pakistani society typically masters only the little part about Giving punishments, or rather, just talking about giving punishments. It acts as a soul-cleanser for a society that is weak on implementation on a design it doesn’t have to begin with. This is an example of what is called “the action delusion.”
DESIGN is what requires creative thinking. It requires that we create new rules, and that we keep pace with the evolution of society and humanity. Design requires thinking with an open mind, and determining the value of concepts we hold. Sadly, like many mis-definitions prevalent in our society (e.g. professional = crook, cheat), “open mind” automatically paints a picture of a careless, hedonistic, self-pleasing mind.
I no longer accept these definitions.
Honestly! Everyone knows what a crime is, what are punishments, and that crimes must be punished. THAT is the easy part.
More BS from his father. That SOB needs to be locked up too. There is clear evidence against this boy as our own members of MB have testified to have been robbed by this a-hole yet his father doesn’t want his son to learn a lesson.
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3832/174bx2.gif
@RAMLA A.
You said,
“Second just a minor correction, I said “status, psyche, capability” not just status. What I have been saying throughout is that status is not the only determinant of a person’s behavior. Nor should they be judged on that alone.”
I emphasised the word STATUS in your post, because thats all the society or people in general can see or are able to analyse, a person’s STATUS……PSYCHE and CAPABILITIES are judged or interpreted by TRAINED EYES only, and can therefore have many interpretations.
Now, I didn’t even discussed punishments, I said people will always critisice and catagarise RICH and previledged more, because they are prominant.
Their actions will always be louder than of some one average or of low status in that societ…this is reality….and will remain so!!!!
Their(RICH) patronisation of a person, movement or a process will always have wider effects on the society as compared to that of an average person with average means.
You said,
“However, we live in this society and can see for ourselves the overall behavior of the privileged which do not such include the “rich.” I myself have been making a lot of assumptions about those both above and below me on any kind of ladder: of wealth, beauty, health, any gift. Time teaches that humanity and human traits (good or bad) cross these barriers. ”
Call it human nature, psychology or learned behavior, but this problem exists everywhere in the world….not just our society. It may be of different strengths in different cultures…but passing judgements or analysing people with pre conceived notions is very normal and prevelant in all societies…..infact you need to be a trained counsellor or a pschologist, so as not to judge people just by their behavior.
Now, whether you or I like or dislike a society which is quick in jugding or eager to punish is entirely a different discussion…..it has many layers and as such needs careful handling….{I would rather discus it with you on your blog}, but for starters….
“Your ideals of a society” are very close to that of Michael Edwards, who is of the beief that ,
“In ‘Civil Society’ we seek to increase the impact of citizens’ groups working for peace and social justice, strengthen the philanthropic community that supports them, and encourage citizen oversight of the public and private sectors. We believe in the value of associational life and in nurturing strong, independent and democratic civil societies. Grants seek to increase participation in public affairs beyond the act of voting and to strengthen civil society organizations. Another initiative aims to foster philanthropy that contributes to social justice outcomes. Other work strengthens global civil society and the ability of transnational citizens’ coalitions to address public policy problems.”
As a scholar and as what can be called a practitioner of civil society politics at the Ford Foundation (where his section has, among other things, helped to support open Democracy) he sets out to clarify and reconstruct the concept.
He describes three different uses of the term:
as a description of varieties of association
as a value advocating the advantages of cooperation
as democratic ecosystem - a public sphere in which engagement with the whole future and shape of society takes place (or could take place).
“Civil society”, Edwards argues,
“is the story of ordinary people living extraordinary lives through their relationships with each other, driven forward by a vision of the world that is ruled by love and compassion, non-violence and solidarity.”
I share his hopes and YOURS. But I hesitate to share his more than positive assessment of “civil society”, which by the end of a short but important book, overshadows his initial understanding of the problems it poses. We can be political theorists, but, we also have to think and speak as a citizens of Pakistan, where the politics of intolerance, fundamentalism, and rabid hate for minorities overtook Pakistan’s civil society far too easily in the late 1960s and 70s…..and has not ended or died as yet…
The problem of moral pluralism has become intractable in large parts of the world simply because each version of the good should be honoured and yet cannot be honoured. Allowing everyone to articulate their own notions of the good life may be relatively simple; the task of ensuring that groups approach in a spirit of compassion and love other groups with different notions of the good may prove impossible
The idea that it is our job as responsible citizens to sustain a moral conversation is attractive. But is it fair and just? The public sphere can exclude certain voices and marginalise others. After all, some people can use words like daggers, and others employ the skills of the surefooted polemicist: considered pauses, oratorical flourishes, a touch of satire here, a touch of mockery there, sonorous delivery and above all the killer instinct. Many more lack such ammunition. Who will “win” in the discussion does not need to be spelt out; it is all too painfully obvious.
Societies are also multilingual( as in case of ours) and this too creates problems for the possibility of deliberation itself. What happens when two languages expressing different understandings encounter each other? Certainly many languages reach out to each other. But some languages acquire hegemony in the domain of civil society and a position to either subdue or to ignore other languages.
Think, for example, of legal and bureaucratic languages that penetrate civil society but are embedded in the power of the state. Both lay down standards of what vocabularies are acceptable within the public sphere and what are not.
At the heart of the civil society debate is the question of democratic agency. Can “we the people” lead both markets and states towards societies where compassion and cooperation are governing values? I would like to think so. But if the concept of civil societ” is to play a guiding role in this, then it also needs to take a measure of the downsides and the dark sides of democratic life.
Saima:
First, think you for sustaining the dialog. Right, wrong, left or right, it is critical that as a nation we learn to speak and exchange ideas. Which is why I think in some ways, and passively, the KMB is doing a great side-service of bringing together people who actively think and talk. The quality of the content is another matter - it requires training and knowledge, not just spontaneous experimentation (i.e. the act of “talking” alone).
Why not visit and comment on my blog some time? A rich discuss always brings life to a blog, and apparantly we have much knowledge to share. :)
++++
All right I just deleted a mile-long response I wrote. I understand the gamut of problems you have presented, and indeed these “conflicts” and questions baffle the human mind. Personally, I think it’s time that humanity starts drawing conclusions from all the systems it has tested so far. As Einstein said, if we use the old methods, we will reach the old results. I sense that a critical part of humanity is tired of the old ways.
What I am attempting to do through my work (in progress and unconcluded as it is) is to take a fresh approach towards social issues, ranging from the religious debates to business. I take a macro-view of the situation and see if a variety of schools of thought can be brought together. Micro solutions can then be derived at local levels.
The Whole-World Thinking is one idea that I am working on.
And the People-Centered Model of Business takes a holistic view of society’s development - the first 7 pages are relevant. I have put the human at the center of this model. And this model extends beyond business - just one instance where I have applied this model.
The center of this model is the human - an individual, then a group, then a society - who makes decisions in the light of the beliefs that are held.
Within this model one can see where the “common points” are. To state it plainly, I believe the common table around which people gather is BELIEF.
And the action center? Humans themselves.
Who takes the first step? The one who takes the first step. Always. In school, jobs, life: the one who moves first, moves first. That is why it is in the interest of the society to sustain a generally humane environment, and make sure that the good are active. Another story.
As Paulo Coelho - and many others - says: “There is no such thing as permission in life.”