just a thought-

Karachi is my home. I have lived here since forever. Though, there are somethings that always baffle me about this city. For instance, it is taken that if you have studied from any prestigious grammar/convent school you would definately come across as the one with too-much-attitude.
I have been noticing alot of this lately,it could be happening earlier but I have only seen this now. This divide. Is it really justifiable? Just because you have an accent or have been lucky enough to have studied from abroad, does that elevate you? Can that make you a better human being than the rest of us? I don’t know if any foreign qualification endorses somebody’s right to excercise derogatory behaviour towards rest of the citizens.
It’s a great feeling knowing that graduates are returning to this country, to this city, at the expense of cribbing about this city’s lack of a proper system. Cribbing may be okay too, as long as something constructive comes out of it. Coming back home and acting like you’ve done this city a favour, just doesn’t work. Do you agree that this elitist attitude might create a massive rift?
-footnote- Didn’t mean to generalise. I am sure there are great many people who are not like that. But those who are, they don’t do Karachi any favours.

39 Comments so far

  1. Lies (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 7:29 pm

    I studied at KGS (which is the prestigious “Grammar” school you’re talking about, I presume.) Although I’m not done yet with university, I do come home often and I do plan on coming back.

    Now, I know you did insert the open disclaimer at the end, but really, without concrete example from people you know, you’re just banking on a general perception, which just makes it false.

    So, pray tell, do you know anyone who acts like they’re doing the city a favor by returning? Or are you hoping such people exist to give cause to you’re negative impressions?

  2. MB (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 7:39 pm

    Sorry henna you seem to be late on this. It’s already created a rift. A rift which is not so visible at first but becomes clear once you are among different sections of society. It is the result of cumulative problems like education, social & economic unevenness, poverty; those who suddenly become rich & cannot handle it, those who are less confident of their own personality that they try to use tactics to impress upon others by force, money, hook or crook.

    It is also because those who are privileged have turned a blind eye towards those who don’t have & gov. has literally forgotten its basic responsibilities. Economic imbalance is a big factor so is insecurity. I remember very well when we were kids our elders use to not let us buy particular expansive gifts just because they think other kids in mohalla will ask the same from their parents who couldn’t afford buy the same for their kids. This respect for others feeling has died absolutely.

    Having known people personally from toppers to always-rock-bottom, I couldn’t agree with you more. This attitude virus is spreading a little earlier than you guessed. And it’s not only confined to lingo only. People tend to act in a certain manner which is not what they really are but it makes them look so stupid. This kind of people look like actors who are hell bent upon showing something. I enjoy their cosmetic behaviour at times.

    Alternatively there people who are all privileged but they behave according to place & time. But its tough task to find such sweet hearted souls. I am lucky to have many around me.

    On a personal note I have noticed people look so sober and decent if they talks in proper Urdu than cosmetic English. I have always tried to find friends who are good at Urdu, coz it’s a sweet language, especially in its pure style & not the abay tabbay INDIAN movie virus affected ones.

  3. Cy (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 7:57 pm

    You can’t conflate money, education, social background and throw everyone into the same bin – money without education is terrible; education and social connections without money is upper-middle class, etc.

    Far too simplistic.

    MB: You’re just as bad as the people you’re criticising if you choose people on the basis of how good their Urdu is – I hope you can see that.

  4. Noori (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 8:19 pm

    Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan

    Resolution on Education
    11 Steps to Reform Education Sector

    The meeting of Central Majlis-e-Shoora, Jama’at-e-Islami, Pakistan, expresses grief and anxiety over the Pakistani rulers’ detached attitude towards education during the last 50 years. The general unconcern towards this one of the most crucial and basic field of national development has caused our country to suffer. Today, there is anarchy on the ideological front; we lack in national cohesion and pursue materialism blindly.

    The present education system has failed to disclose before the new generation the founding reasons of Pakistan. The disastrous results of this negligence are now evident in every walk of life. The responsibility for this deterioration lies with influential factions besides those in power. The most alarming aspect besides ideological confusion and moral degradation is the falling standard of education. Due to constant decay Pakistani educational document are now no more acceptable abroad. To top all is the class distinction in education. Because of this, Pakistani nation is most discreetly broken down into an upper English medium and a lower Urdu medium class. Engaged in musical chair of power, our politicians are oblivious of this feat of national massacre. Rather they are protectors of high class system of education, which no doubt is synonymous with national suicide and treason against Islamic principles.

    This meeting appeals to those at the helm of affairs, the powerful factions, the elite and to the discerning people, that they accord top priority to revamping Pakistan’s education system. The reformed system should incorporate Islamic ideology and the new generations should be educated in consonance with national demeanor. This shall enable them, on the one hand, to work for national build up and development and, on the other, to engage in technical and scientific research and thus to stand upright among the comity of nations.

    This meeting foretells that the Pakistan’s educational system has scaled disastrous magnitude and shall be alarming when it become a security risk to existence of Pakistan. In this era of the most swift developments in science and technology, very few of our people are fortunate to get education. Once graduated, they lack in self-reliance and skills. The Majlis-e-Shoora demands the following education system reforms:

    * Uniform Educational System: For spreading Islamic ideology, creating sectarian cohesion and teaching regional and social parity, a uniform syllabus, system of examination and medium of instructions should be enforced in all educational institutions.
    * National Character Formation: In accordance with the Constitution, Urdu should be made the state language. Status and role of regional languages should be maintained in consonance with the prevalent objective conditions. This should be done with the view to promote national identity, to better develop regional languages and for healthy growth of the provincial languages in keeping with the particular educational needs of the province. Concrete steps should be taken to lessen role of English as an official language. English should not be the medium of instruction yet course should be adopted for its teaching as a foreign language.
    * Institutionalizing Education: Urgent measures should be taken to improve the deplorable conditions of the state owned educational institutions. Effective education policy should be decided in consultation with judiciary, teachers, education experts, peoples’ representatives and students’ representatives. Further, no political intervention should be allowed in implementation of this policy.
    * Minimizing Educational Abuse: Exploitation by private educational institutions in the name of education should be regulated justly through legislation. These institutions should be made to boost standardized education on the one hand and on the other, to embrace all classes of society on basis of merit.
    * Restricting Educational Aid: The existing procedures and practices in utilizing foreign assistance in education should be rectified. National objectives and interests must be fully protected. National educational needs must be fulfilled out of national resources while the foreign assistance should be restricted to science, medicine, modern technology and agriculture.
    * Waqf: Traditional Islamic concept of waqf institutions should be restored and activated so that private educational institutions may attain national status rather than becoming family enterprises.
    * Funds: Education budgets should be prepared in the centre and provinces independent of the annual financial budgets. During the next few years education budget should be increased to 5 per cent of the GNP.
    * Women University: Every province should have a women university of its own and arrangements be made at every level to meet the educational, economic and social needs of women.
    * Missionaries Activities: Educational activities of Christian missionaries should be monitored in the international scenario so that these institutions do not become agencies for the protection of interests and achievement of the political ends of foreign imperialistic powers. These should neither be nationalized nor given free hand.
    * Students’ Unions: Elected unions of boys and girls in government and private educational institutions should be revived in the interest of healthy and purposeful activities.
    * Religious Education: Gross resourcelessness, indifference and negligence with which the educational system of Deeni Madaris suffer need attention. A national policy should be framed by taking into confidence the Ulema. Efforts should be made to root out the secular thinking based on the segregation of state from religion.

  5. Feet Maestro (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 8:27 pm

    Hmm, personally, I’ve found the faarun returns (like Cy) to be far more civic minded and sociable (ok, just plain nicer!) than the locals. My stereotype or yours?

  6. Poo Poo head (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 8:36 pm

    If I ever return, it would be a favor to Karachi. Henna you can quote my example seriously. But why should I return ?? I dont feel like coming to a country that has slave mentality.

  7. Adnan K (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 8:49 pm

    I dont think we want people like you POO POO (D&*K) HEAD.

    I am one of those who has been away for over 7 years from my beloved city and have plans of comign back. My Paki friends here are always questioning me on why i want to put myelf thru the ife that is karachi. My only reply to them and now to you POO POO is that unless I try and make the effort to make improvements in myself and an effort to improve things in my country I will never be satisfied. I have no right to blame the country if i am one of those who is a part of the brain drain. I have no right to curse and lay blame when i am part of the reason my city has gone in this direction.

    If you live elsewhere for your own resons thats fine with me, but dont come out and accuse the country of what problems exist without ever having mad an effort to correct those problems.

    GO ahead and be happy being a third rate citizen in a first rate country!

  8. Lies (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 9:10 pm

    @Poo Poo Head: Stop acting like a douche and stop being a troll. How would you be doing a favor to Karachi exactly? Edhi is doing a favor to Karachi. So unless you plan to come here and devote yourself to such charitable acts, or other ways to fix the system, it really is arrogant of you to equate your job at a call center to a great philanthropic act for Karachi’s humanity.

    But on the other hand, if you’ll sit around at Costa Coffee all day, bitching about Karachi, which is what you will do, believe me, than you should really sock it.

    @MB: Urdu might be ‘sweeter’ (debatable), but whats it got to do with character?

  9. KhiTorPit (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 9:48 pm

    @Noori, where did you copycat this from ? :)
    @Poo Poo, shame on you to say like that :p
    @Adnan, I am with you … nice to hear that … Hum bhi aik din wapas aaye ga inshallah.
    @Henna, The ppl who have studied abroad ..their english accent get changes, so you might have misunderstanding and have thought of it as an attitude, but in most cases it may not.
    And for those who really have an attitude they should not forget that no matter how good english they are speaking but finally they are desi.

  10. Ash (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 10:06 pm

    People with good english or good urdu are equally elitest as we just saw. Thats all stupid. A person is worth who they are and what they do, not just their accent.
    Although i have to say that english is certainly the language of international buisness so we’d better all learn at least enought to be marketable. Urdu is certainly the more beautiful language and i think more should be done to preserve it. Just like I am sure more needs to be done to preserve every other language in pakistan.
    No offence but as long as we are beseiged with anticultural elements whether its western culutural imperialism or Wahabbi’s the future of all our pakistani languages is in question. Language needs not just literature but poetry, songs, media etc to survive, Bollywood will keep Hindi alive for a long time to come. We need a plan here.

  11. Noori (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 10:10 pm

    @KhiTorPit, The term copycat refers to the tendency of humans to duplicate the behavior of others.
    Anyway here is that link rg/crisis/education.html or you can click my name under this post.

  12. henna (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 10:20 pm

    @ lies- Yes I know some people, I didn’t say all. Some of my friends studied from these schools too, but then there are people that choose to negate everything.
    @ ash-Agreed.

  13. Lies (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 10:39 pm

    Henna, ok so you know some people. I’m sure there are people who didn’t study at these schools and have attitude problems too.

    What are you saying? People who go to ‘elitist’ schools are people? (as in, they have issues with attitude, just like other people, as I have established above).

  14. Adnan K (unregistered) on January 23rd, 2007 @ 10:50 pm

    All sorts of people can have attitude issues. I have many friends from “those” schools and to stereotype in such a manner reflects more on the person making the generalization than the people theselves. Grow up people! and start judging a person on who he or she is and not what school they went to. Sounds like a case of jealousy to me.

  15. dano (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 1:56 am

    I agree with Feet Maestro – people returning from abroad are more civic minded in general — they drive sanely respecting traffic laws. They don’t litter or bribe and generally follow rules unlike people who have spent their entire lives in KHI.

  16. Karachiite (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 2:15 am

    The elites of every country in the world have an attitude, not just the Pakistani variety. What is different in Pakistan, however, is that:

    1) The Pakistani elite is mostly oriented towards an alien foreign power, i.e. Britain and have adapted their disdain for the ‘natives’ – this is called the kala agrez syndrome.

    2) Because of being trained in a foreign culture, a very large proportion of the Pakistani elite ends up going abroad, to the land of their worship – an English speaking Western country.

    3) Because of severe ethnic problems in Pakistan there is NO effort to reorient the country in a local language – Urdu. So by default English wins.

    4) Poo Poo Head is right. There IS a slave mentality towards the goras in Pakistan and there’s little chance of that changing any time soon. On the other hand the goras don’t even want to come to Pakistan, no matter how much money you offer them. I know from experience. It also so happens that the expatriate Pakistanis don’t consider the goras to be so much superior as the local Pakistanis.

    5) If there’s going to be any major development in Pakistan then we’ll have to bring these expatriates back, attitude and all and learn to live with it.

    6) It is not true that English is necessary for development. In China almost no one speaks English, and they’re way, way ahead of Pakistan in development, and so is Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore etc.

    7) In short Pakistan is a very CONFUSED country.

  17. Darthvader (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 3:27 am

    trading your hours for a handful of dimes
    gonna make it baby in our prime
    get together one more time …
    get together one more time …

    ..my god he was a drunk but the bastard could be
    the best song writer ever..well may be not the best but youknowwhatimean.
    and YES there is a divide , which is only natural and, I dare say as there should be.

    greeting all

  18. Purple_Haze (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 6:00 am

    well! we have to see the root cause of anger and or frustration. Which could be multiple. Generally speaking people who posses higher education (know more then average about the world) automatically gain a status people who can “do more” and when they cant, it causes frustration & anger. They can see the social, political, environmental, managerial and other problems from an elevated level and if they cannot resolve it or when/if people dont listen to them that causes frustration.

    There have been some recent studies done on people moving back to developing countries from UK/US after finishing education (due to the economic boom) They come back with enormous amount of knowledge and leadership skills but find themselves trapped, the reality hits them when they cant even cross a road in for example Karachi. So obviously that would create frustrations but one recommendation I remember was “Aim high move slow”. So it is a slow process, funny thing is that normal educated people can help such people who are in an illusion of being over smart but their knowledge should be used in the right direction.

    But at the same time there are people who simply have attitude mostly do do with their own past (child abuse etc)

  19. Poo Poo head (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 7:05 am

    Why would one like to come back to a place where people could not listen to different view. I am not hiding behind any thing. I would not ever come back unless I see positive change there or I feel that I could change some thing.Hell with you losers. You people could bitch about every thing.

  20. Karachiite (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 7:15 am

    Hey Poo Poo, I’ve read your blog and you seem like a level headed kind of guy. So what happened to you? Did your girlfriend dump you or something?

  21. Poo Poo head (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 8:38 am

    Okay Karachite, let me explain you some thing.

    I am very happy where I am right now. I do not see beggars on roads. I do not read news that people are dying around me. I do not see any one suffering around me. I do not see wny one who wants to read and cant afford. Do you know how peaceful it is. I could enjoy all luxury w/o ever thinking that my neighbours could not afford it. It is very important for me. I know I would die of desperation in Karachi. You could say that I am a weak person and I am turning away from reality but if even I return to Khi, I would not be able to help any one. I could help many people while sitting here. 1 $ I earn becomes 60 Rs and that could be a food for 2 persons. Why would I return to a place where people do not limit their expenses even knowing that people are dying around
    them. Sorry I cant stand that and I am better off here.

    Other thing that I feel myself secure here. I know that if I am right then no one could dispute my
    rights or authority. When you live abraod, you gain self respect and I do not wanna lose it. In
    Pakistan any one could do with you what ever they want and you can’t not get justice.

    Other thing is that I do not think right now that I am as better as I could be so what is the use of
    returning and polluting Karachi. First let me improve and if ever I think I could make a difference there, I would return but otherwise never.

    Do I Make sense ??

  22. asad (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 12:05 pm

    Hello. I just wanted to jump in here. I also went to KGS for 7 years and to Springfield School for 4 years before that. I just completed a bachelor’s degree in December at a university in the USA and came back to Karachi this month.

    I think I understand the points people are making here. I am disappointed by elitism in Pakistan, but I don’t think it is restricted to schooling. I know people who believe they belong to an elite class based on their religious views, ethnicity, military rank, etc.

    I also know people from all sorts of backgrounds who are interested in making contributions to Pakistani society, but they feel frustrated. I can understand how dark things look in Pakistan with all the violence and insecurity and selfishness. I am especially afraid that we are developing a culture that has no room for individualism and a diversity of ideas.

    So, i want to point out here that there is an opportunity now – which i also suggested to the KMB writers a few days ago, but i guess they’re not interested – for all of us to make a difference and do Karachi a huge favor.

    Idealist.org has launched an initiative to encourage people across the world to participate in their communities. To do this, Idealist.org is serving as a site for people to arrange meetings during the week of 5-11 February 2007. So far there is one meeting arranged in Pakistan, and it is in Karachi – see here.

    Please spread the word within Karachi and to any contacts throughout the country via e-mail, blogs, etc. The commitment is minimal – just a couple of hours at most.

    If any of you are interested in organizing more meetings within Karachi please do so. Bring anyone who is interested. These meetings should hopefully be a demonstration of diversity and a sense of community.

    I don’t think you need to be registered with Idealist.org to register for a meeting, but you do need to be registered to organize one. I think the site is worth registering for anyway.

  23. K G (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 12:38 pm

    @ POO POO HEAD, I totally agree with you and logically you are making sense ..living in US we all have the same thoughts,but what i donot want to forget that i am originally from pakistan,and who knows may be one day i have to return home ,even if i dont want to (keeping in mind world’ poltical condition) so whenever i go there i try to ignore somethings be cause its not their fault that they are living in such conditions,and believe me its not easy to change things over there,and iam a practical person, i know if i wait here for things to get better then who knows how long will it take,and i have my family there which is more important to me ,so even though i have everything in usa ,but nothing can replace my family ,and i love my country and iam not being emotional here .the reason why iam saying this is that i salute all those ppl who are living thier in such conditions and still hopefull for the better future.:)

  24. Lies (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 1:42 pm

    @Karachiite: While yea, people in China generally speak very little english, it really is a special case. China has has the critical mass (people with spending power) needed to not care what the world thinks. No matter what language the Chinese speak, the world beats a path to their door. No other currently, not even India, can boast of that. There just isnt the mass.

    Your other examples dont stand up. I’m in Singapore currently and everyone here speaks English, for example.

  25. Karachiite (unregistered) on January 24th, 2007 @ 2:59 pm

    Lies. I went to KGS too. Class of ’80. Lots of Grammarians here I believe.

  26. Dee (unregistered) on January 25th, 2007 @ 4:15 am

    @PPh…> WEll Said.

  27. wasiq (unregistered) on January 25th, 2007 @ 5:11 am

    Hate to disappoint you but the cult is broken…karachi is all action now….

  28. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on January 25th, 2007 @ 9:52 am

    @PPH: your points are very valid and I don’t understand whya re you being cursed. Maybe because you are not pretending. Anyways,you would be very thankful to Allah that unlike millions you got chance to land on American land which made you to say all this but the point is if every invidual starts thinking about his own then who will bring change in this country? What you or other expats would have learnt in US could be very benificial for people of this country. I wouldnt agree that expats are not loyal to their native towns, I personally believe that they love Pakistan more than us. In past few people try to return back Pakistan with dreams that they would serve Pakistan but they were badly treated on first stage[airport] and then they decided not to cmoe back, there are some examples in my family as well.

    I believe that an invidual expat might not make any difference and there is collective efforts required. If every invidual follow you and don’t return then same old crappy people would keep sucking the awam of this state. Think out of the box my friend. As long as we are prisoner of our own deeds, we can’t be helpful to bring any change and certainly such expats don’t sound sensible when they whine about country problems.

  29. mansoor (unregistered) on January 25th, 2007 @ 11:33 am

    interesting post….

    i believe the ‘dont care’ attitude stays when they’re back but changes after sometime.. One cant help but do something about things (even if its finding ways to get around it).

  30. Arifa (unregistered) on January 26th, 2007 @ 6:15 am

    @ Adnan K: I couldn’t agree with you more, this is something I say day in and day out: I’d rather be a 1st class citizen in my own country than a 3rd class citizen in a first class country” Just like the Devil puts it in Milton’s in Paradise Lost: It is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven”
    I proclaimed never to leave my country and then landed far away from it 5 years ago. I am dying to return home. We are living a third class life in first class countries. I’d rather live a first class life in my own country, so what if it is considered a not-so 1st class country in the eyes of the world I LOVE IT.
    @Henna P: One thing I don’t get is how the hell do people get AN ACCENT??? I wnet to a convent in Khi and then for further studies I came abroad I don’t ever rememebr any of my frineds having an accent.
    If you went to school in Pakistan and then went for higher education abroad I don’t see how you can develop an accent, unless you tried very hard. I have studied outisde Pakistan for 3 years am working here too and so far no accent has developed..hmm…might be some deficiency in my brain cells or maybe I am clinging too tight onto my Pakistani style.. or maybe I didn’t want one as it looks cheesy and I know what my friends back home would say if they hear me talk with an accent. So people who have accents by being outside the country for less than a decade are either masters at adopting languages/accents or just plain wannabes.

    @Poo poo head: if you don’t see beggars on the streets, people suffering and overall poverty and absolute rule of the jungle doesn’t mean these things aren’t happening.However, I know where you are coming from, the standard of living is higher than it is back home but what it means to be a part of your country and not *ASIAN, INDIAN OR OTHER* on a form you fill out here means a lot to some sensitive expats. Life is great but not complete, know what I mean? no identity. Living abroad makes us honest, hard-working people and that’s what’s lacking back home we need to harden ourselves towards all the wrongs and try and correct them one day.
    Know of any chairities abroad where I can give money for Karachi? I normally end up sending money home through a friend or via bank account.

  31. Poo Poo head (unregistered) on January 26th, 2007 @ 7:23 pm

    Arifa, I believe in US. I really. I love this country as much as I love Pakistan. This country has shown me the true meaning of life. How is it possible that you live some where for 5 years and don’t love it ?? I really do not know about this third class citizen theory. In 5 years I have never ever faced any discrimination. It has never happened that I deserved some thing and I was denied due to my race/color. I hate it when people brings this third class citizen. US knows only one thing “merit”. If you can take it by horns then it will follow you. Reagrding India/Asian , this is not discrimantion/racism . Do not we classify people as Muhajir/Punjabi etc. This is identification not racism. Not sure what part of US you are but for my last job I was in rocky mountains(all republicans white area) and I never saw any muslim there , even saw only 1-2 brown skin but never had any problem. All people were great.

    Regarding charities, I work with TCF(http://www.tcfusa.org) only. The donations are tax deductible so you enjoy two rides. You could set paypal account and it could be deducted automatically on monthly basis and at end of year they send you a letter about total donations and you could save almost 30% tax on it. Like if you pay them 1000 then at end you would save 300 from tax so it means that you agve only 700. My company also matches my donations so that 1000 becomes 2000. My 700 means 2000 for TCF. Try to get some one whose company could match donations for you or I could help if you do not find any one.

  32. Arifa (unregistered) on January 26th, 2007 @ 8:23 pm

    @POO POO Head: It’s not that I have ever faced discrimination and not that I don’t like it here, it’s great here, but not mine.It’s like when you are a guest at someone’s place you would ask for a glass of water and you are politely handed one but when you are at home you just go and get it from the refrigerator yoruself. GET THE DRIFT? But like I said before I guess some expats just don’t like to adapt and they want to go back home where they belong, others can adapt well, people like you and they are happier I guess.
    I have always lived on the East Coast where I see more Desis then I need to but the fact that you nomrally work on Eid or you have your iftaar on the subway etc… just makes one feel more out of place than any other time.
    Thanks for the tip, I’ll check out TCF.

  33. original-anon (unregistered) on January 26th, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

    Arifa, I too don’t get the third class citizen argument that people bring up. I have lived in the US a very long time. Just read my old buddy PPH’s comments since they echo my sentiments.
    Aren’t you the one whose father hit a man with his car for some reason? I wonder how that guy feels – surely not like a first class citizen.
    And then you say you see more desis here than you need to – well, I’m afraid that is all you will see in Pakistan – desis!

  34. Arifa (unregistered) on January 26th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm

    @ANON: I would get really perturbed if I ever see as many Goras in Pakiland as many desis I see in NYC. It’s not natural, that’s what I meant by *more than I need to* and Desis include all Bengalis, Indians and Pakistanis here. Yes
    my dad did hit a man for peeing and showing off his genitals in public in HIS country as he was trying to correct a wrong going on in HIS country,unfortunately in his military kind of way. He wouldn’t care where people pee in some other country, having lived abroad most of his life he finds flaws in our society and gets upset.Let the old man be :)
    Missing ones country applies to those who have problems with adapting life in the West, as much as you get out of it (in terms of benefits), you still want to go back to your roots. It’s all about human nature, each person works in his/her own way. A few others & myself think differently, that’s all.

  35. Dee (unregistered) on January 27th, 2007 @ 2:44 am

    @Arifa: I have heard this third class citizen comment before but usually from people who live in Pakistan but never before from a person who actually lives abroad, got her education and got a job(i assume a decent one).

    I dont know how you define a third class cititizen but if one has a liberty to get education, access to health care, right to vote, get a job, not thrown stones from majority or not denied of most services and most importantly you are allowed to practice your religion then its not what third class citizenship is all about.

    (i am using word majority as there are always some losers who think of you as a —- , no matter how sucessful you are).Thinking of the place where you were born or brought up is only natural.It doesnt/should not make you a third class citizen.

    I dont know what do you mean by having difficulty *Adapting*, i think you have adapted well.I do miss my country and most importantly friends and family.It will be easier if you use the word *integrate* rather than *adapt*.You can always visit or if you feel that strong then i dont think anyone can stop you from moving back.
    Hope that helps.

  36. ash (unregistered) on January 27th, 2007 @ 3:03 am

    arifa you are already a second class citizen (woman) and if you are not punjabi or sindhi or if you are not sunni muslim then you are third class. If your skin colour is dark then fourth class etc…
    Every society needs to break out of its inherent stupidity of dividing people into brahmins and shudra’s.
    The west is actually better than we are so far at doing that, not perfect but better.
    I am sure you did not mean either thing the way it sounds but uncle should still not have hit that poor guy, and you should refrain from saying
    “I really get perturbed (at how) many desis I see in NYC”
    how would you like to hear that from a decent well educated normal white person?

  37. Arifa (unregistered) on January 29th, 2007 @ 11:10 pm

    While tlaking tO some other people who live here and yearn to go back to Pakistan, I realized that they all like being here but do want to go back. They are torn between what they like and what they need. They like being in their own country but they need to be here as this place provides more than where they like to be. It makes sense.

    Women were considered 2nd class citizens by everyone at the turn of the previous century, this discrminiation is slowly fading away, it will take another 50 years or so for it to materialize in our country but I am hopeful it will. In the meantime these 2nd class ctizens enjoy more privileges then the 1st class male. I, as a woman am allowed to pay first in the line at a store or pay my bill or go to the bank teller first. The grocer comes to me rather than me going to him, every single shop is targeted towards me. I can easily get help from strargers while trying to fix my car, corss red-lights without getting a ticket and get away without paying a fine. I like this chivalry if for having all this I am considered 2nd class.
    As for being a non-pujabi or non-sindhi, well I think our President is from none of the above CASTES, infact even color for that matter. He still was able to throw out a 1st class citizen’s government wasn’t he? We are getting there. Just not yet but we will be there pretty soon. I can only say one thing for my country” With all thy faults, I love thee still”
    Yes I do see very many desis here.. no comments on this one…it seems to offend some people here…
    And I always feel that the people from this country have every right to think about us the way they can, we are afterall barging into their country and taking up jobs and land and homes and whatnot that belongs to them. It’s awonder they haven’t decided to throw us out yet.

  38. ash (unregistered) on January 30th, 2007 @ 2:40 am

    Finally a polite disagreement on kmb.thanks.
    1.I would probably not have gotten into this but the western nationalists/right wingers have been saying paki/mexican etc go home since kingdom come. Immigration actually works for a countries benefit which is why its allowed. Also there are enough people in every part of the world who dont want to see hostility and name calling towards any group of people and i think thats an admirable thing. That we should all be part of.
    Youve been very honest about your prejudice/opinion i hope that at some point you will come to the conclusion that the world is a better place when we are all a little more open minded.
    2.Equality and chivalry are both good things. In the long run equality is actually better. even if you have to wait longer for groceries.
    3.Lastly mush identifies himself as punjabi, not urdu speaking :)

  39. Arifa (unregistered) on February 1st, 2007 @ 10:34 pm

    @ASH.. my replies in descending order
    2. I won’t mind equality but while I am waiting for it, I am enjoying the chivalry too :)
    3. That’s just a thought, a what if… from the immigrants perspective, not the government of that country’s. No country would be allowing mass migration unless it was workign out for them too.
    4. I asked my dad last week why he hit the guy peeing on the roadside. He doesn’t remember :)

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