Karachiites , the first one to speak ?
( Related : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
One after another i received three SMS messages. I didn’t bother to check them as i was online doing other stuff. Two pop up windows opened as chat window. One from friend ASR ” MB Check the latest news man ” with a link & ” MB Dude if you are at home check GEO “.
I was posting a topic by then, so i didn’t bother but soon within half and hour i saw readers firing at KMB with their views on latest developments. Wow, thats fast i said to myself. The news itself may be related to whole Pakistan but the way Karachiites rushed towards KMB showed not only their interest in politics but the desperation for expressing their views & the non availability of proper forum & media for it. because though i had friends online from other cities too but Karachiites i have notice jump first when ever a news breaks.
Are Karachiites that much sensitive to developments & breaking news, whether or not its unrelated or little related to KHI ?
Dictator is on rampage.. fired Cheif Justice… and took unconstitutional step of appointing Justice Jawaid Iqbal as CJ instead of Justice Rana Bahagwandas who is senior most judge at the moment..
Justice Iftikhar Chaudry took some blod decisions in his tenure as CJ including the historic verdict against govt in Steel mill case…
all the lawyer bodies are protesting against dictator’s unconstitutional steps
yeah dictator is on fire! read the “Reason” here.
From the source http://thenews.com.pk/updates.asp#19122
haudhry Ifthikar included misuse of authority and ignorance of merit in some of the decisions made by him.
Yes he misused his powers and made voice against the decisions of govt like illegal land distribution,Basant etc etc.
Who says Zia doesn’t live among us anymore?
It would be interesting to read how die hard dictator’s friend will come out from their bills and chant in favor of Musharraf. Specially those who are army kids :-)
mistakes happen.. certain decisions need to be taken for the long term betterment rather short term.
i still remember people criticizing the nazim system, the devolution plan and what not.. turned out okay.. even better than before.. didn’t it?
the reason we (the army kids as adnan puts it) are so pro army is simple.. we see things get done…
we see things get done…
what else i said? its dictatorship. Decline anything which is Unpleasent.
Just an interruption: Chief Justice of Pakistan has been removed from Office. I am posting details on my blog here:
http://nextbyramla.blogspot.com
Mansoor, do you agree with Dictator’s decision or not? feel free to share because this forum doesn’t have restricton like an Army mess.
MY GOD….this is bullshit. Musharraf had to come up with any topi. He has done it because this Chief Justice was the only person the poor of this country had hope with. started to hate ARMY lately frankly. They are reason along with politicians who wont let this country progress.
Its interesting to know what the journalist community will do. Will be the chumchas of ARMY or they will do their task.
This has been done to save ISI and the ARMY who had become earthly GODs in pakistan.
Those who say Bhagwandas could not be made because
(1)He is Hindu (2) He is out of country
here are the answers :
He already had been made acting Chief few times. What about that ? And also as mentioned on TV by previous Cheif Justice. He can be made.
And for the second question. I wonder how many years it take to fly back from INDIA. And the way it has all been done hastly.
Today is a black day in history of PAKISTAN.
The “Dictator” made a decision and given his track record I trust him to make that decision. I am sure the politicians and the ARMY have run this country into the ground but I still say that the ARMY is alot better then ur bloody charudaris and waderas.
He’s not SACKED – but SUSPENDED to avoid conflict of interest because there is a case in hearing against him.
Don’t worry. People will forget Mush as they have forgot Zia. Dictators are hardly remembered in good words and I can guess that majority of Pakistan will not mourn after his demise.
Concerned and what’s that “TRACK RECORD”. Provide some stats please?
“Aap apnay daam mey sayyad agaya”- This fits well on Musharraf. He’s surely loosing ground .
According to Saad on TM’s
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/02/26/letter-to-cj-from-naeem-bokhari
Do note that Article 129 does not allow the removal of a CJ but just his suspension. Anyways, in our land of the pure, anything goes.
@adnan
if it wasnt for him, you would be living in a bankrupt terrorist state which would have been either bombed by the US or would have US military all over the country running everything.
Thats his track record.
Except for a few cynics like you trust me, most of the country would mourn his death and if you want you can ask the people in the street yourself.
What has Musharraf done!?
Well, well. We all know what happened to those who resorted to such tactics. Have they forgotten Nawaz Sharif?
Damn; they have handed over a point to Nawaz.
Justice Iftikhar 2 days ago gave a historic judgement against NWFP govt to give admission to a son of government department chokidar who had enough numbers on his marksheet but was simply declined admission coz he was son of a chowkidar… now today if this CJ runs for election against Mush then surely he’ll beat Mush by a long margin..
strictly speaking the president has the authority to do this — and its Article 209 not 129 adnan — get your bloody facts at least correct if nothing else
How can you guys equate Musharraf with previous military dictators? They got Pakistan involved in endless conflicts at the cost of economic development. Musharraf is doing the opposite – going for economic development instead of playing Command and Conquer at the cost of Pakistan.
Pakistan’s economy has doubled since 1999 from $60 billion to $ 125 billion. Isn’t that good enough? Would Mrs. Zardari have done better?
What is it that you people who’re so angry want exactly? You want Pakistan to conquer Kashmir, India, Afghanistan, and the rest of the world? Screw the people of Pakistan, let them starve?
If we don’t get our priorities right, in a couple of years we’ll have a situation so grim that India and Bangladesh will be deporting starving illegal immigrants from Pakistan.
Wake up people.
@karachiite, Loved the way u said it.
@Doctor, stop being so naive, it takes a lot to run for elections and the CJ wont win at all, he might have done some stuff for Pakistan but Mushi has done more.
Guys,
Out of 8 or 10 judges who came on GEO, ARY,AAJ majority have said its wrong. Majority has said he can take the decision but he needs to suspend him and not remove him and the accusation that he fav his son is shit coz the directions for his transfer came from gov itself leading towards the PM. And even if its done then obviously the gov itself has to be brought to justice. As journalist pointed out on GEO. All proof is pointing towards gov itself the IG Punjab the PM. The CJ has nothing to do with it. According to him its all designed by gov.
And for argument’s sake let suppose he did any mistake. In a country where democracy has been raped by politicians + Army and where all the thieves are ministers right now. Is this the way to do ? Why this hypocracy. And the second question was the second senior Judge was in INDIA. Tell me how long does it takes to bring him to back?. Few hours ?. And the way the staged the drama for the oath. Even a drunk will tell you its all drama to remove the CJ because in few days an important decision regarding 40+ MMA has to be deciding and because there are so many cases in court against gov. & the damn ISI. They simply wanted this man removed.
And it was Mujeeb-ur-Rehman shami or Najam saithi who said exactly what the DOC said , let me repeat
” Justice Iftikhar 2 days ago gave a historic judgement against NWFP govt to give admission to a son of government department chokidar who had enough numbers on his marksheet but was simply declined admission coz he was son of a chowkidar… now today if this CJ runs for election against Mush then surely he’ll beat Mush by a long margin.. “
he has been accused of using official govt planes to visit different cities to attend court funtions… let me ask the dictator why the plane gifted by Qatar Airline to PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN is being used by
him as a presidential planes when he already have a fleet of presidential jets ,business jets and air force jets at his disposal… why not use that jet be given to PIA so that it can use it on the troubled European routes… he has been accused that he demands too much protocol… well whats wrong with that… when president himself makes the life of countrymen miserable in the name of protocol and security then why not the justice of highest court of the land do it? he has been accused that he ridicules and degrades senior senior civils servants and senior police officers in his court… (frankly don’t we all wana do the same to these jerks when they come up with lame excuses on issues they’re being questioned about) …
all legal experts unanimously are saying that President can’t suspend CJ just like that, he can send a reference against him in supreme judicial council(SJC) and only SJC can do the hearing and decide whether to suspend or fire CJ.. president took another unconstitutional step .. maybe step in the direction of imposing emergency in the country to delay elections…
CJ is known to have taken few decisions lately which have not gone down well with government… like that basant case in which CJ clearly held the rulers responsible for the deaths of innocent countrymen just for their own joy and pleasure… CJ loved taking sue moto action against different issues including illegal detention and disappearance of different anti government people/journalist who had disappeared and their fate was not known to even their family members.. government was forced to disclose that it had these people in custody … steel mill case is also indigestible for govt…
constitutionaly a non muslim can’t be a CJ but can be a acting CJ but Mush didn’t wanted Justice Rana Bhagwandas to be acting CJ coz lately he had given few judgments which clearly showed that he had reservations against govt and wasn’t happy with its working.. so Mush choose the time when Rana Bagwandas was out of country so that he can’t be acting CJ
CJ was summoned to Army house in RWP at noon and Mush wearing khaki uniform had some heated argument with CJ on some issue from he returned to his residence at around 5 pm and has been under sort of house arrest since then
@omar both Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid , Justice Wajeehudin Ahmed both says that president didn’t do the right thing..
when decision are being taken in army house with a general in uniform on the top then what else is it called other then a marshal law… only Burma has a similar tyrant regime with a military ruler taking all decision … Burma and Pakistan… what a pair…
its sort of putting pressure on other judges that if u go against the dictator you’ll have similar fate..
a deligation from command and staff college went to meet CJ few days ago and the wanted CJ to clearly interpret constitutionally if Mush can be reelected from current assemblies before the next general election and the reply they got from CJ wasn’t very pleasing for them … since then Mush has been on his toes and flimsy accusations have been collected against CJ….
just imagine a dictator in uniform demanding answers
from CJ in army house.. is CJ really answerable to General in such a manner?
@concerned: It seems you live in a nutshell and have no friggin idea about Mush’s popularity. Just give me one damn reason that a street guy would praise him. High prices,high inflation rates,mobile snatching[upto 200/day],kidnapping people from streets by using secret agencies. If all these things can make Mush popular among a common man then I must salute your wisdom. Try to live a life of a layman who earns not more than 4000 a month then you would be first woman who would whine on streets and curse him. I ask why dont you provide some stats to prove your points rather
@omar: you never miss a chance to i referred the person’s statment and that must be a typo of that guy Saad. 129 or 209,according to particular clause( which is 7 i think) of particular law , The Presiden’t can’t appoint new CJ unless the results of hearing are concluded. GO and read your own damn papers and geo channel which is talking about violation of clause.
I have done some quick research – developing new here: http://nextbyramla.blogspot.com Got references to the Constitution – as well as
I request that anyone who uses the material in media reports respect the copyrights of the blog.
TWO important things:
1. The Wikipedia page on the Justice is totally lame, and there is no mention of the remarkable judgments he’s passed. I invite all of us to make a list of his suo moto actions, and update the wikipedia page. Use my blog to find links to leading sources – other search needed.
2. I am protesting this more by wearing a white band on my arm. I don’t care who cares, but it tells me that I care.
Technically, the case against Iftikhar may have a point – but I am sure the intentions behind the move are sinister. That’s what many others on the media are also saying – and of course that’s also the prevailing feeling on this blog.
Thanks, people!
when CJ was summoned this afternoon at army house he was reportedly asked to resign honorably citing personal/health reason , which he obviously refused and then the rest is in front of us all..
I have done some quick research – developing new here: http://nextbyramla.blogspot.com. Got references to the Constitution – as well as a list of the cases that Justice Iftikhar gave ruling on.
all legal experts says that he is still technically CJ … CJ is still under house arrest not being let to meet any one…
pml(n) Jawaid Hashmi is put in jail for 23 years for reading out an unnamed letter against army at the floor of assembly… while naeem bokhari write such a contemptuous letter accusing highest court’s chief justice…
even queen of england can’t summon CJ like that and make him answerable on any issue..
Some of “Misuse” or “power abuse” of authority examples are given below:
1)verdict against steel mill privitazation
2)Remarks against Missing People
these two comes in mind,secially missing people case because he was making a lot of noise against that particular issue.
But then this is not the first time. Nawaz also offended Sajjad Ali Shah severely.
The most funny thing i am reading on channels is “Shaukat Aziz k Mashwaray per sadar ne hataya” as if Mush listens shaukat? Plus that bastard punjabi Naeem Bukhari who is a big licker of musharraf brought up lame points to earn points in the eyes of Musharraf as if his personal life is an example of Saint. Where was bukhari hiding when 19 people died on basant night?
Mb, no this is not bangladesh where Muhammad Yunus can win the election. This is Pakistan where honest and poor lovers can’t get anything goood. Mush removed one of the greatest obstacle who could mess the process of future “Engineered” election.
By the way, would it not be good to make a seprate thread for CJ case and move all comments there? when we can tolerte lame off topic posts like blog spot ban and others then this could also be tolerted.
people who think that our judiciary is not corrupt are smoking dope. check out how quickly judges jumped in aid of their own when shown evidence of rot within:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C02%5C17%5Cstory_17-2-2007_pg13_3
Contempt proceedings against ‘Gumnam’: LHC orders Geo to file reply by February 26
“LAHORE: A full bench of the Lahore High Court has directed the management of Geo Television to file a reply by February 26 in contempt of court proceedings against the channel for alleging that Lahore High Court officials were involved in corruption during a telecast of the show ‘Gumnam,’ which aired on January 12, 2007…”
now this supreme court judge has been in power for a very long time but not once has he done anything to stamp out corruption in the judiciary which is one of the most serious problems facing the people of pak. sure he has talked a good game but what has he done to bring about improvement in the judiciary? moreover press has carried reports insinuating abuse of power by people close to him however there has been no follow ups because of the threat of reporters being hit with contempt of court. also some of the decisions handed out by this court have been completely farcical exhibit 1 being the steel mills case. similarly in the latest judgement on nwfp hisba bill, supreme court has deemed some provisions asun constitutional that were deemed constitutional under the first review.
also blame for the whole fiasco lies with mush. being a dictator, he had the opportunity to clean the house – get rid of all the bozos once and for all which is exactly what the bangladeshi army is busy doing these days. instead of acting tough which is his job, mush is behaving as if he is in the business to win popularity contest. never thought i would see the day when i would be looking at bangladeshis with admiration.
as far as gumnam case then this is a typical business war between Jang and Lakson group nothing else *grin*. Both parties are always ready to catch each others weaknesses.
in case you have missed the news, here are the latest developments from our former colony.
we can only dream:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSDHA25909220070309
Bangladesh’s interim government bans indoor politics
Fri Mar 9, 2007 3:00AM EST
DHAKA (Reuters) – After detaining dozens of influential leaders in raids across the country, the army-backed interim government has further restricted political activities for an indefinite period, officials said on Friday.
PM and his thugs(Dr Salman Shah etc) was clearly critisized by CJ in steel mill case and Stock Exchange crash case and all this accusations have been pre fabricated by govt against him
wow — field day for the MMA-backer/trolls here
adnan — why dont you go read the constitution, article 209 and then come back and have a debate here — READ my post which said “strictly speaking he does have the write” — tell you what moron, read the editorial two days from now which will mention this to you — hmmm — i wonder if i can quote my own editorials in defence of my argument or will there be a conflict of interest
and doctor you know all these details because?
there is no bar on the CJ being a non-muslim — gosh some idiots here have their facts wrong
Wow. My blog looks blocked. As expected.
Omar: Problem with you that you are an old fart who gets touchy when someone hits on your “sensitive” organ. I know how you were gang raped on Adil’s blog and you started crying high. Why don’t you quote the particular article RIGHT here to put “some” weight in your statments? and yes don’t act like a lamer while you actually are by brining things like MMA here. I am not MMA person but If a person like you can pollute this space then everyone else has right to share his/her concerns right here.
field day for the MMA-backers and @omar must be pulling his hairs out in frustration?
on my connection both blogspot and wordpress are still blocked
ramla what have you “wrote” tht you thought that your blog could be blocked? i can see your blog witout any proxy.
btw let me clarify i dun back MMA.. (military mullah alliance) the b team of dictator who gave him smooth ride by signing 17th amendment and betraying every one…
“constitutionaly a non muslim can’t be a CJ but can be a acting CJ” i take my words back as its technically isn’t correct as pointed out by @omar
constitutionaly a non muslim can be a CJ but chances of Rana Bhagwandas being permenent CJ were slim coz current CJ Iftikhar Chaudry’s term would have ended in 2013 long after the retirement of justice Rana Bhagwandas..
still justice Rana Bhagwandas was considered anti govt and that why he was sidelined while this decision was taken…
CJ was kept in army house until 5 pm while all the coup against him was completed and since then he has been under unannounced house arrest..
Rana Bhagwandas once back from foreign trip isn’t being invited to supreme judicial council’s hearing against CJ…
@MB btw nice topic change… i use to wonder what would be the best source for breaking news online.. still unable to find any…
Pls don’t bug omar much. Last time he tried to commit sucide by jumping out from the last floor of Jang press building because nobody was listening him on other forum.
an editorial printed two days from now will be literally outdated.. coz alot is being revealed as we speak
tenure since 2013 … its a long long time.. with a dictator having habbit of changing PMs like tissue papers it definitely must have been too painful to bear…
WordPress blogs are blocked on my end. Blogspot *just* starting working a couple of days ago – and it’s looks like the blog is OK after all. I am just worried that blogspot MAY get banned again.
yea thanx to you they’ll ban it in supreme national interest…
adnan siddiqi — teri asliyat samnay aa gayee hai — with your last post — i dont think i need to say any more since your post should not be dignified with a response —
doctor alvi sahib — wah wah — bara acha blog hai aap kaa — does freedom of speech mean freedom to abuse —
adnan — why dont you tell the people here what adil najam did to you –
and actually yes there is a link — since the jamatis/jihadis particularly hate mush, they will use this to get maximum political mileage — something that adnan siddiqi and doctor here are doing — adnan, btw r u in favour of the hudood laws or the women’s protection bill — and dont bring in ‘organs’ into your answer, i know you MMA types seem to be obssessed with them tho
on my connection its already banned so doesn’t make a lot of difference 2 me…
i use pkblogs.com and firefox extention of pkblogs
http://www.pinballer.net/hq/pkblog.htm
Ramla but your impression was that your blog was JUST blocked due to some of your “Writings” which shook Mush regime and he ordered concerned staff to block Ramla’s blog ASAP otherwise people of Pakistan would come out of eternal sleep and start speaking against Musharraf. A typical MMA attitude who believes that few “dharnas” can shake the entire govt while in reality their dharnas can’t even shake few butts.
P.S: Now pls don’t get serious. I am just kidding. well I am half kidding.
yes indeed , plug plug and more plug . it’s like everyone is tripping to outdo the other person trying to prove how well informed and ‘connected” they are .
mass hysteria.
and as always , Greetings , my brothers and sisters in Islam—-hehe
Vader , The Dark Sith
@omar am just curious.. were you sacked from Dawn or you left on your own?
@omar: hehee. maza agaya :p~~ Omar if you are still at office then please don’t make yet another sucide attempt Ok?
Oh between if you re wondering who told you about your sucide attempt, well It was mentioned in last episode of GUMNAAM-Geo’s thirlling series. :-)
Btw, this blog is not owned by Dr. Alvi :-)
@ MB:
Thanks for changing the topic! A prompt response. It’s also a great way to share the news, because censor on the mainstream media will just be kicking in…
I noted on Dr Awab’s blog someone’s comment that the news reports seem to be getting more regulated – which is what I believe could be the case.
Very, very enraging.
@ Adnan:
Actually, I did seriously think that blogs will get blocked again. Not because Musharraf is very worried about me – you genius – but because this is what the government has done before. Open your eyes, many people still can’t access blogspot.
But actually – that’s not your point. Your point is to TRIP others so that your ineffectiveness can be covered up.
Yaar Doctor you are here too…and… messing with other people:)….
Any ways joke aside.I agree with Ramla we should protest the suspension of CJ with wearing the arm band….Not cursing against the President on KMB because I am sure the President is not reading KMB….
I am not against the President but I dont like his move against the CJ…
@Doctor and Adnan, guys I know you have too much anger in your hearts so just go and drink cold water..hopefully it will give some remedy:)…
OK so MB, it was you who noted the media silence. I think with Internet, we have a very powerful tool with us to share news and the honest views…
Anyway. Catch up later. Keep it up guys, and please update with the latest.
Oh – latest – Neoka tells me that a week ago the govn tried to block INAPPROPRIATE sites, and messed up in the process. Which is why A CERTAIN BLOGGING SITE is working. For now.
@ Karachi4ever
The white arm band it is. :)
Waiting for morning news in the faint hope that situation will clear up a bit.
they always keep on blocking n unblocking sites.. same thing happened after assassination of Nawab Bugti
situation is all clear … cj suspended by military leader when he refuses to bow in front of him..
@ramla: *grin*.. BTW you didn’t answer me yet on other thread. Y or N ?
a bit off topic[but then it's not new here]. A two episodes article by Jawed Ch. I think he’s being too much outspoken and he should think about his family.
http://express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100141736&Date=20070308&Issue=NP_LHE
http://express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100142447&Date=20070309&Issue=NP_LHE
ah-life of a dictator.
president is left for lahore while PM is heading for karachi…
*has left
@RAMLA
“OK so MB, it was you who noted the media silence. I think with Internet, we have a very powerful tool with us to share news and the honest views…
Yeah right it was me. Trying to follow all channels for the important development ( including RADIO) and one thing more i have edited your previous comment in which there was a link to your blog but the link was wrong.
the CJ gave some historic judgements e.g: the chokidar’s son + steel mills…. the gov seems really pissed of and iam sure this will boomrang in their face!
i think the preson who advised mushi to do this was the same person who advised him to hold the referendum many years back. The quality of advise is 100% same!
there are NAB convicted/Charged ministers in the cabinit for the last almost 5 years and he accuses the CJ of these flimsy charges e.g: using gov planes for official visits….man..what are official planes for? i guess they are only for mushi and his team to go abroad on long holidays every few weeks!
I just can’t stomach this one! `
i would like to point out one thing.
when the referendum was held many years back, i was supportive of mushi, but i thougt it was very important that at least 20 -25% people cast the negative votes so that it can have some credibility and not turnout to be a sham like Egypt, Iraq…etc where in every election the govt usually got 99.99% votes, therefore i cast my vote against mushi.
to my horror the result showed more then 90% votes in his favour and he lost a lot of credibility because of that.
i thing this CJ issue would further erode standing!
@RAMLA:
” I am protesting this more by wearing a white band on my arm. I don’t care who cares, but it tells me that I care”
I really appreciate your effort but don’t you think it should be BLACK and not white.
“OK so MB, it was you who noted the media silence”
Yes i noticed many things. Like all channels (including RADIO) just starting out with something on it and then being silenced except GEO on which a journalist had started to take off the cloths of gov. so Hamid Mir hurriedly winded it up all and KAMRAN KHAN came. Also the radio got silence too then.
Its quiet evident they used the dunda.
@KING FAISAL
“sure he has talked a good game but what has he done to bring about improvement in the judiciary? ”
How can he take actions against judiciary without proof and for the proof the same corrupt police would be used. Also he cannot do anything on verbal accusations. He at least didn’t allow anything go under him directly.
One person on TV said he is the first JUDGE in history who used to sit long after the trimmings to do his work.
@adnan siddiqi:
u write…”bastard punjabi….”
so does it make u a bastard muhajir??
Relax BT
His point was on Naeem Bukhari. You skipped his name and quoted the first part only.
Its an insult to judiciary frankly. I wonder how on earth this guys even talk abouts misuse of power when he is a dictator ? (His gov may be better than others but again HE IS A DICTATOR , its simple as ABCD…)
On Mushy….one phrase is almost always enough: You really, really don’t want me to get started on that…i could pretty much blame him for every single problem in this country.
As for the developments, I’ve got an even shorter response…SIGH. (multiplied manifold).
Dear Sir,
The following issue can destroy ISLAM or ISRAEL; study it thoroughly to see if there is any truth to it.
READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES FROM THE BIBLE AS IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON THE WAR AGAINST TERROR/ISLAM and the claim of Israel that god gave them the land. If the child is an infant than the Judeo-Christian version becomes null and void and we are wasting our time and resources i.e. we could save trillions of dollars and create a more peaceful world rather than fighting against Islam the religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).
The COVENANT with Abraham and his DESCENDANTS is central to JUDAISM/CHRISTIANITY/ISLAM.
Please note this is not a competition between faiths but an attempt to decipher fact from fiction.
Genesis 21:14 Contemporary English version se below link
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=GENESIS%2021;&version=46;
Early the next morning Abraham gave Hagar an animal skin full of water and some bread. Then he put the boy on her shoulder and sent them away.
GENESIS 16:16
And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ish’mael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ish’mael to Abram.
GENESIS 21:5
Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
At Genesis 22 Abraham had only 2 sons others came later. The Quran mentions that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed hence the reference in genesis 22:2 your only son can only mean someone has substituted Ishmael names for Isaac!!
BY DOING SOME KINDERGARTEN ARITHMATIC USING ARABIC NUMBERS (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10)
NOT ROMAN NUMERALS (I, II, III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X) NB no concept of zero in roman numerals.
100 years old – 86 years old = 14 ADD 3 YEARS FOR ISSAC’S WEANING
THAT WOULD MAKE ISHMAEL 17 YEARS OLD IN GENESIS 21:14-21
BUT IT IS A DESCRIPTION OF AN INFANT.
Carefully read several times the above passage and then tell me the mental picture you get between the mother child interactions what is the age of the child. If the mental picture is that of a 17 year old child being carried on the shoulder of his mother, being physically placed in the bush, crying like a baby, mother having to give him water to drink, than the Islamic viewpoint is null and void. Why is there no verbal communications between mother and (17 YEAR OLD) child?
GENESIS: 21:14 – 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the (17 YEAR OLD) child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the (17 YEAR OLD) child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, “Let me not look upon the death of the (17 YEAR OLD) child.” And as she sat over against him, the (17 YEAR OLD) child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad where he is. Arise, lift up the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the (17 YEAR OLD) lad a drink. And God was with the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
The age of Ishmael at this stage is crucial to the Abrahamic faiths. If he is 17 than the JUDEO/CHRISTIAN point of view about the Abrahamic covenant is correct. This has devastating theological consequences of unimaginable proportions.
This makes the conflict between Ishmael and Isaac and there descendants a work of fiction. I would strongly suggest it is clear cut case of racial discrimination and nothing to do with god almighty. The scribes have deliberately tried to make Isaac the only son and legitimate heir to the throne of Abraham??
Please can you rationally explain this anomaly?
I have asked many persons including my nephews and nieces – unbiased minds with no religious backgrounds but with reasonable command of the English language about this passage and they all agree that the child in the passage is an infant.
AS THE DESCRIPTION OF ISHMAEL IN GENESIS 21:14-21 IS THAT OF AN INFANT IT CAN BE ASSUMED SOMEONE HAS MOVED THIS PASSAGE FROM AN EARLIER PART OF SCRIPTURE!!! AND HAVE GOT THERE KNICKERS IN A TWIST.
For background info on the future religion of mankind see the following websites:
http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM
(MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLE)
http://bible.islamicweb.com/
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=EvilGoblin George Galloway media appearances
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
(ISRAELI HOLOCAUST AND WAR CRIMES)
http://ifamericansknew.com/
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm
(BIBLE, QURAN and SCIENCE)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ANTI-WAR
http://www.harunyahya.com/
(EVOLUTION DECEIPT)
http://www.barnabas.net/
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
http://www.islamicity.com/
http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml
http://www.islamalways.com/
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 – 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: “O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!” (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!”
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him “O Abraham!
105. “Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!” – thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. “Peace and salutation to Abraham!”
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac – a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. “Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!”
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
ISHMAEL IS THE FIRST BORN AND GOOD NEWS OF ISSAC DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE SACRIFICE?????
Therefore the claim that god gave the land to Israel is destroyed without the need of any WMD’s.
HADITH
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael’s mother followed him saying, “O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her Then she asked him, “Has Allah ordered you to do so?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not neglect us,” and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka’ba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers:
‘O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks.’ (14.37) Ishmael’s mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had).
When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ishmael) tossing in agony; She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached the Marwa mountain where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between Safa and Marwa) seven times.”
The Prophet said, “This is the source of the tradition of the walking of people between them (i.e. Safa and Marwa). When she reached the Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, ‘O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?” And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam-zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it.”
The Prophet added, “May Allah bestow Mercy on Ishmael’s mother! Had she let the Zam-zam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zam-zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth.” The Prophet further added, “Then she drank (water) and suckled her child. The angel said to her, ‘Don’t be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people.’ The House (i.e. Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left. She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada’. They landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. They said, ‘This bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley.’ They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water, and returned to inform them of the water. So, they all came (towards the water).” The Prophet added, “Ishmael’s mother was sitting near the water. They asked her, ‘Do you allow us to stay with you?” She replied, ‘Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water.’ They agreed to that.” The Prophet further said, “Ishmael’s mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them.
oh yeah screw mush lets have true democracy who do you want? bibi or baba….dont kid yourself all you mma chamcha’s talibanists will never win any votes like they never have done and its just funny when you people act outraged because “justice” and “freedom” and “democracy” have been threatened – have the guts to say what you really mean.
Mush is the only person standing between us and total devastation. Rememeber we have been there before – do you miss it? move to afghanistan :)
@ASH
MMA thingy & this is different. Just because few pro-MMA are supporting this justice doesn’t mean you start dragging other topic into to save Mush.
And please wake up. We need leadership , not leaders. If you dont know what this means go and watch ADIL NAJAM on ARY ONE WORLD which came today.
He looked so sensible when he said we are worried about leaders changing ( mushy in this case) as if they are a products available on shops which if GOD forbid is gone we would be down on knees.
He may be the best among worst but we dont need personalities ASH, we need institutions. And 7 years is sufficient time to build institutions like police, clean governence etc. But what he did ?, Alligned with thungs so that he can bargain his kursi with them. All he has been doing during these 7 years is to save his wardi & his ISI shit which screwed the nation by using our blood for their king style aayyashi.
War on Terror is just a pretext to scare us of his own once created taliban to lengthen his tenure & only this CJ was proving to be his and ISI’s nightmare.
If you know more about this issue, enlighten us else whats the point in being Army chumcha.
Few days back Justice Iftikhar said in an address to first Judicial Conference that judges should have guarantee of not loosing his job even if he gives a verdict against administration. Alas, he became victim himself.
Surprisingly, few people like Omar R and Concerned still favoring Mushi. Though Article 209 does give president power to suspend (and only suspend), clearly Mushi motivation was evil because he negotiated with Justice first in GHQ. and @Concerned Mushi himself admitted his popularity going down few months back. He knows he will even loose a fair local counselor election thats why he keeps himself in uniform.
Steel Mills and Stock Exchange has irritated the dictator and puppet cabinet too much.
Yaar MB There is no sign of new leadership…You have to see Musharraf for the next few years…Unless you guys have step up and become a new leader or if you think there is any leader do back him/her up(I don’t care who you support just support the poor guy or girl)… Otherwise you just write paragraph and paragraph against Musharraf and at the end nothing gonna happen…
We the Karachiites just bithed and whined about the issues on our blogs..some people appreciate our writing and some are not and the next day come and we start bitching about some other issues…
You are surviving Musharraf for last 7 years and you will survive him next good 7 or 10 years…
Do you really think your blogs have any importance…I don’t think so because I saw people here just argue with each other.Some times used sarcasme or some times used curses but there is no constructive things are happenings here..
@KarachiForEver
The police wont do the carpenters job, the taxi wala wont & not supposed to do officers job and so forth. Its wrong to ask us to do leaders job.
Its important for people to do their job. Our job(lowest level) & journalist & media (higher) is to inform leader properly without coming under pressure,till a day we have a chance of good souls. This may well take 50 or 100 years but after all the WEST took 300 years to just become HUMANS.
Its also encouraging to see young people are not as dumb as they used to be, they are more concerned ( yet less active i admit) but its good sign. At least it better than indulging in wrong activities.
One thing i dont get… you say judiciary should have a right to follow its course and be fair in its judgement. How fair is a judgement when the accused is on the bench himself?
please follow some facts!
1) The justice was SUSPENDED not removed
2) It is constitutionally allowed. Since many have not taken the time to read the constitution, let me paraphrase it here. Article 209, clause 5 and 6 read…
(5) If, on information [231A] [from any source, the Council or] the President is of the opinion that a Judge of the Supreme Court or of a High Court,
(a) may be incapable of properly performing the duties of his office by reason of physical or mental incapacity; or
(b) may have been guilty of misconduct,
the President shall direct the Council to [231B] [, or the Council may, on its own motion,] inquire into the matter.
Now if you say, mushi made this ammenedment himself, where u back in 2002 when this ammendment was made? Why no hue n cry back then?
3) Justice Bhagwandas was previously made ACTING CHEIF JUSTICE, and this time would’ve been ACTING CHIEF JUSTICE only as well, as is Justice Jawaid Iqbal. Also, the position of Chief Justice cannot be allowed to remain empty and whoever is available takes it. Bhagwandas was out of country.
4) A hearing is expected, with THREE SENIOR JUSTICES on the bench where Justice Ifthikar will be allowed to defend himself. WHAT MORE OF A JUDICIAL MATTER DO YOU WANT!!!?
5) Justice Ifthikar has done good things, but there are allegations against himself which he should be able to defend!
Let the judicial matter play out. THEN make ur accusations. I’m sorry to say it, but this is being done according to LAW AND CONSTITUTION!! just because you dont like it or its unprecedented doesn’t mean it’s not!
MB if your argument is that Mush hasnt done enough for social institutions then you are right he hasnt. Maybe you should blame our society for not having enough values to elect the right leaders as you know we always vote in the worst crook and then wonder why things are not better.
Everytime Mush tries to do something like the womens’protection etc he gets bogged fown with our inherently regressive political culture.
Everyone who truly argues against him on the basis of any abstract concept like justice freedom democracy had better be willing to believe in those concepts when it applies to people other than themselves e.g women and minororites and even atheists how often does that happen?
The people complaining the loudest are often the biggest believers in oppression just their own oppression ….am i wrong about that? Why not just say that, just out of honesty.
“Everytime Mush tries to do something like the womens’protection etc he gets bogged fown with our inherently regressive political culture.”
Come on ASH, he used dunda and achieved what he had to when he had the will. Let me tell you something dear.
I have a friend, he has a known person in his mohalla who is in ISI & had come from Balauchistan one year earlier then Bugti’s death. He told me MB this guy has told me that ARMY wants to remove Bugti by hook or crook & you will see they will remove him.
Around 6 or 8 months later, Bugti was gone. So please don’t say he cannot do if he has will. Whenever he talks about MMA and stuff he actually scares USA so that he has its backing. And uses USA to scare Mullah/MMA etc. He is a player & he is best at it no doubt.
The fact is very simple dear. He had to remove the CJ. All the rest is drama. And interestingly the way it was executed clearly showed what the intentions were.
It takes 30 minutes to bring back the acting CJ Bhagwandas. Was the sky falling over if waited & called him in emergency. You know very well what i mean.
If not me, than do listen to what people who personally know Naeem Bukhari have said at TEET MAESTRO’s blog. Let me give you link. here we go
http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/2007/02/26/letter-to-cj-from-naeem-bokhari/#comment-155947
Also for arguments sake. Suppose all the accusations are true. Now technically it means as per ZS too that ” applies to all the Parliment, Burocrates, Ministers and Army Generals. Why are they not dismissed like this from Army House.Every body and anybody in Govt. of Pakistan should be sent home as every one of them lives beyond their means. All the burocrats are sons and son-in -laws of Parlimentarins and Politicians ”
Dont you think so ? Please maan jao that he did it for his Generals who are equally thugs & the ISI & his gov. Its written on the wall. Accept it.
And the cry about leadership. I will again quote what ADIL NAJAM said on ARY that we need leadership not leaders. Let leaders go one by one. We need leadership which will stay with everyone. And this MAN is making sure only he stays in power.
again, i am a believer in all the ideals you have mentioned so far…that all people should live in this land without fearing that disagreement will lead to death, without fear of saying the truth, without fear of repraisal….unfortunately the way things are our inherent society is miles away from accepting dissent or personal freedom …and big on using violence to beat other people into submission
Mush has certainly done a lot of things that i disagree with but again i have little tolearnce for people who have no real belief in personal freedom running after him saying look he is antifreedom…its like fox news saying they are protecting freedom and justice…what the hell does that mean?
Either all oppression is wrong or its not – stop selectively criticising “oppression” thats my point. Just say what you mean. Mush is on the wrong side of your outlook (not you i mean any given persons) on religion/afghanistan/taliban/ etc just say that
what ever the poor cj is charged with a flimsy and fabricated accusations.. Ansar Abbasi of The News says that PM had drawn the trap against CJ and all the orders were illegally issued by PM house relaxing all rules… interior ministry , IG police and others are not being accused of any wrongdoing and poor cj who has nothing to do with all this is facing the music…
the protocol thing is also beyond me even a chota mota IG demands protocol and guard of honor so whats wrong if CJ of SUPREME court highest judicial body in the country demands protocol…
as for usage of govt planes.. are we all forgeting Mush/PM’s foreign trips with all the joyriders? they take plane load full of joyriders with them where ever they go and waste tax payers money …
these are just flimsy charges
If he can shed his DICTATORSHIP mentality. He is all good to me personally. So i wont say he is all wrong to me. Its just that these ARMY generals are ROBOTS who just cannot go against what they have been programed for. To obey & to make obey by hook or crook.
Thats where he becomes evil. And please dont think just because we have so many private channels, it means he has given freedom of expression.
Even if this would be the thug zardari tenure or NS era you and i would be on this blog or any other. And no one could also stop private channels coming…..Who can stop info coming now these days except if you house arrest someone.
all the lawyer bodies including karachi bar, pehsawar bar, quetta bar and others around the country are boycotting the court proceedings and all of them unanimously say that its an illegal step against the CJ just to create uncertainty and emergency like situation before elections…
@DOC
Was his name Ansar Abbasi who came in CAPITAL TALK yesterday eve and too off all cloths of MUSH and CO.
more serious references can be made against General and his ruling thugs.. but who’ll do that? coz nobody dares to do that…
yea Ansar Abbasi “The News” bureau chief in islamabad.. naeem bukhari even said in his letter that Ansar Abbasi was called to SC and degraded by the CJ whereas he says that he was never called to SC or degraded/insulted by the CJ… that clearly shows the Naeem Bukhari has cooked up all the accusations on the behest of some one else(Mush/PM)
Errr no doctor — i was actually offered the post of my boss and almost double the salary
Ash is upset after reading all anti-Musharraf andarmy statments. After all the “Holy Image” of Army is being screwed right here. She’s upset enough that CJ Iftikhar Chudhary has become a Taliban for her.
Ash, please continue. I would love to read how does she defenses something which is Indefensible. I know she and like minded would now bring mullah and taliban in middle and would change the topic. :-)
Naeem Bukhari’s license to practice as a lawyer has been canceled .. technically he is no more a lawyer…
It’s time to remember Faiz’s classical “Hum Dekhay Gey” which he wrote against another dictator Zia.
hum dekhainge
lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhainge
hum dekhainge
woh din ke jis ka wada hai…hum dekhainge
jo loh-e-azal pe likha hai…hum dekhiange
jab zulm-o-sitam ke kooh-e-garan,
rooyi ki tarah u\’dh jayenge
hum mehkoomon ke paoon tale,
yeh dharti gha\’dh gha\’dh gha\’dhke gi
aur ahl-e-hakam ke saron per,
jab bijli ka\’dh ka\’dh ka\’dhke gi
hum dekhainge
lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhainge
hum dekhainge
jab arz-e-khuda ke kaabe se,
sab butt uthwaye jayenge
hum ahl-e-safa mardood-e-haram,
masnad pe bithaaye jayenge
sab taj uchhale jayenge,
sab takhat giray jayenge
hum dekhainge
lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhainge
hum dekhainge
bas naam rahe ga Allah ka
jo gayab bhi hai hazir bhi
jo manzar bhi hai nazir bhi
uthe ga anal haq ka na\’ra
jo main bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho
aur raaj kare gi khalq-e-khuda
jo main bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho
hum dekhainge
lazim hai ke hum bhi dekhainge
hum dekhainge
woh din ke jis ka wada hai…hum dekhainge
jo loh-e-azal pe likha hai…hum dekhian gey
Afsos, Musharraf learnt nothing from his previous peers *sigh* but then he is just following his peers. :-)
Naeem Bukhari’s license to practice as a lawyer has been canceled .. technically he is no more a lawyer.
Why and who did this?
Adnan , kia yaad diladi tumne Faiz ki
aik kaam karo, next post on same topic is coming, save your energies for it too, JUICE laaon ??