Fahm-e-Quran & Hadith Course

One of the most well known and popular amongst Islamic scholar Dr. Farhat Hashmi’s students, sister Huma Najmal Hassan (wife of Mr. Najmal Hassan, the head of Meezan Bank’s Corporate & Business Development sector) delivered an introductory lecture today on the rights of the Quran ahead of the start of a four month course on Fahm-e-Quran and Hadith at the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Mosque.

The course is being organised by the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Muslim Development and Research Centre, and is offering both morning as well as evening courses in a wide variety of topics including Quranic Recitation with Tajweed, Translation and Commentary, Quran Grammar and Basic Arabic, Hadeeths and Asool-e-Hadeeths, Masnoon Duaein and others.

All classes will be held between Mondays and Thursdays at the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Mosque, 18th Lane, Khayban-e-Badban, Phase 7 DHA. For admissions and further information contact 021 538 6653, 0300 706 6876, 0333 333 4410 or 0333 365 5754 for evening classes. The first classes are scheduled to begin from coming Monday, the 21st of May, 2007.

158 Comments so far

  1. Salman A. (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 1:46 am

    Sister Zainub,
    What is Tajweed and Asool-e-Hadeeth? Please shed some light if possoble. Thank you & Jazak Allah.


  2. zainub (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 2:02 am

    The word tajweed literally means to improve or make better, in Quranic terms it refers to the rules of reciting Quran with correct pronunciation, in the way that the Prophet, peace be upon him and his companions, may Allah be pleased with them, recited Quran. Google tajweed for more.

    Asool-e-Hadeeth on the other hand is the science which deals with the gradation of sayings/traditions/hadeeths of the Prophet, peace be upon him. A scholar will apply the science of Usool-e-Hadith for grading the Traditions which are extant and for fixing up the categories of Fard, Sunnah, Mustahab, Permissible, not-Permissible, partially-Permissible, etc.


  3. wasiq (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 2:58 am

    please wait…..i was watching the cricket match…..haven’t done the waduoo(ablution)….yun giya aur yun aya….!

    alqaida strikes again…!


  4. wasiq (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 3:58 am

    ok i am back….yes where were we…..han

    wait wait wait….does anybody know that the day before yesterday through out karachi/pakistan all the branches of bacon house school system,audiocaters(the cheaper one) and tuition wali baji….have closed don w.e.f
    no official reasons has been given yet according to daily jung…..

    according to the rumors/speculations in town this step has been taken after increasing border tensions near the pak-afghan border…..the peshawer resturant blast…..and the incident in which a pakistani soldier of the border security forces wiped-out the whole U.S platoon single handedly inside the pakistani teritory….confirmed by the pentagon sources according to the fox news

    is there a fear of an all out american invasion…..??

    for more latest details about the schools closure and the background check read daily jung,watch fox news live or visit your nearest library…..

    GOD BLESS AMERICA


  5. mana (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 4:27 am

    RIGHT SAID MR “FASIQ”

    GOD BLESS AMERICA


  6. mana (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 4:28 am

    RIGHT SAID MR “FASIQ”

    GOD BLESS AMERICA


  7. Baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 4:37 am

    What a sorry state of affairs for like of mr fasiq errr mr Wasiq. USA does the 911 itself and these green card hungry hypocrites recieve spiting of americans in the face. LOL. What a shameless attitude. Now usa might do the drama agian and mr waiq will agian be eagerly ready for american spiting in the face. Maybe american spit is like ‘tabarak’ for these low life creatures?


  8. SELF (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 4:56 am

    Can I ask, we have so many Ulema already, why do we need two more? How these two are better and what is wrong with what we already have? Why is Islam in not so good state despite so many clergy present?


  9. Baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 5:02 am

    Islam is not in a good state because of munafaqeen that ask silly questions on the net.


  10. SELF (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 5:26 am

    Baazi, oh great one..what is an example of a not silly question?


  11. Baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 5:32 am

    My post was not directed at you? Was it? Do you consider yourself a munafiq then? Really?


  12. Neena (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 9:14 am

    Is the same Farhat Hashmi who reported to have said that Muslim women should let their husbands marry a second time so “other sisters can also benefit” and deported from Canada on living there illegally?

    I don’t have anything against her but it would be better (religiously too) if she and her follower urban affluent women should really do something for the uplift of miskeen and less fortunate women instead of ending their Islam just by wearing niqab.


  13. Salman A. (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 10:15 am

    @Neena,
    if you call yourself a muslim then,
    -Shame on you for putting ‘tuhmat’ on a muslim woman and scholar.
    -Shame on you for spreading such rumours without putting any damn effort to find its authenticity.
    -Shame on you for being a black sheep.
    -Shame on you for supporting media’s propaganda against Islam.


  14. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:02 am

    Dear Zainab,

    I must thank you for this refreshing and necessary post. We’re living in an era where we are surrounded by enemies and traitors. Highliting such events on public forums like KMB is very necessary. Atleast someone tried to pen about religious events in Karachi. Karachi is not all about Arts,paintings and dance masti. Lots of people do participate in religious events as well. Though I am not Dr.Israr follower but still listen him often and read his articles. It would be nice if you or someone else could post his bayan timings as well.

    Neena, though I wouldn’t prefer to use hard tone like Salman but yes I do agree wit him that unless you don’t have proof of something,you shouldn’t blame her or anyone related to her. Farhat and her mates might be doing more than Hijab which you are not aware at all.

    Wasiq, If I am not wrong, Becon Network used to run by wife of Khursheed Kasoori,our “FORAN” Minister. So maybe there is some “connection” of closing all branches and their relationship? :-)


  15. Neena (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:36 am

    Shame on you for spreading such rumours without putting any damn effort to find its authenticity.

    Farhat and her mates might be doing more than Hijab which you are not aware at all.

    Care to support your claims with an authentic links.

    I call spade a spade, if it’s shameful I don’t care. But Shame to all scholars who want to live in the west for it’s comfort and free society WHILE millions suffer in their homeland due to lack of integrity. Don’t you agree if these powerful women followers of Dr. Hashmi spend a minute of their time knowing where millions of zakat rupees going while innocent children and women are begging. Not to forget underpaid household staff and laborers roam our streets.

    FYI, most polygamists from Pakistan in the west legally divorce their wives so they can collect social welfare (free clothing, health care) from their respective countries. When they do this it becomes a community issue because such welfare programs are funded by tax payer (Soodh) money. One more thing these scholars out right out law Soodh money and preach not to take loan for home or car, forgetting most people are not fortunate to have up front money to buy such necessities. West is flourishing due to soodh money, if it is wrong then they should stay away from here.


  16. saima (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 12:50 pm

    Karachi and the World don’t need fundo-religious groups and pope style preachers (incl. Farhat Hashmi, MMA lot) to instruct us what to do. Most of them are ‘perverts’ with a capital P. The Farhat Hashmi ‘born-again Muslim’ movement for urban middle-class women has a higher agenda. They are helpful only if they allow one to analyze and question but ironically, most of the followers have blind faith. Read Quran and analyse religion yourself atleast you are better than a mullah that preaches to break TV and hit your wife upon disobedience after Friday prayers.

    For a Secular Pakistan-or at least Karachi!


  17. Dost (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 1:47 pm

    duh neena………..tax equals soodh?

    which school/teachers have the ‘hounour’ enlightening your upper floor?


  18. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 1:49 pm

    Salamalikum,

    I had heard about Dr. Farhat Hashmi and due to new fitain popping up every where one has to be careful about what brand of Islam is being taught. I don’t really know much about Dr. Hashmi and what I know about Al-Huda, it sounds right. But, people have to watch out for things like ArRahman ArRaheem (Babar Caudhary and his cohorts). May Allah guide such munafiqeen or stop them in their paths. Allahamdulillah, many common people have also come to realize the deceit of ArRahman ArRaheem due to the prompt action of the true scholars. But, many still don’t know. Have people seen his Quran “dars” on his ArRahman ArRaheem channel? What a fraud! He can’t even hide his inability and nifaaq.


  19. Dost (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 1:51 pm

    @Saima, secular like mqm?


  20. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 2:29 pm

    Salamalikum,

    Zainub: JazakAllah for posting this. It’s heartening to see such posts on KMB.

    Sister Saima, you are the best example of why people shouldn’t follow your advice to “analyse religion yourself”. You might want to look into attending Al-Huda lectures, inshaAllah. Please enlighten us with the information of the place where Mullahs preache to break TVs after Friday prayers. If Al-Huda is what it’s, then at least it should shut up those who call Mullahs “backward”.

    I completely agree with Salman and others. Jo log nak neeyati say Islam ki khidmat karahay hain un par kichar nahin uchaleeya. This is not becoming of a Muslim. Criticizing or questioning authentic people who are spreading Islam requires references/evidences, and many of them. In fact, Jarh wa Tadeel (ÿ¨ÿ±ÿ≠ Ÿà ÿ™ÿπÿØ€åŸÑ) is a full and complete science in Islamic scholarship just like fiqh, hadith although much less needed and therefore taken up by students. Jarh wa Tadeel is the science of analyzing/cirticising/agreeing with statements, opinions of a scholar with great deal of research and evidence and most of all correct niyyat and akhlaq. So, don’t roam the internet posting things that are of grave concerns to Islam and Muslims.

    Neena, I might give more weight to your argument if you had been known to raise on this forum these “social” issues of where the zakat money went and the inactivity of these women. Could it be true that your conscious suddenly woke up after reading this post because your real concern is to show these women down and call their way (of learning Islam/wearing niqab/hijab) backward than what you do?

    Wasiq: May Allah have mercy on your and guide you. It’s one thing to do something wrong or disagree with something that’s good but to make fun of it is a lot more worse. Islam has warned about the time when people sin and then boast about it. May Allah help us.


  21. Planner (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 3:35 pm

    Assalamoalikum!!

    Dear Fellows!

    Islam is not what we think, ISLAM is simply the message of ALLAH taught us by Hazarat Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), There is no such difference that this is MULLAH’s Islam and This is enlighted Islam. ISLAM is completed 1400 years back and now there is no more definations required to enlight it.

    You people dont know that when Serbia attacks on Boasnia they people are Muslim but they dont even know the “KALMA” but there only fault is that they were MUSLIMS. No matter how we are enlighted but the Anti-Islam Powers will hit us and they are hitting us.

    The need is to come back to Original Islam taught by Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), and call to Unite Muslim as a one NATIOn.


  22. original-faisal (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 3:40 pm

    “Could it be true that your conscious suddenly woke”

    @Ibrahim,

    I hope you don’t mind but I simply must point out that the word “CONSCIOUS” is an adjective whereas the correct noun that should have been used in this sentence is “CONSCIENCE”.


  23. Planner (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 3:44 pm

    @ Last thing is:
    MAY ALLAH GUIDE US TO RIGHT PATH THAT LEAD US TO HEAVEN, Aameen!!


  24. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 4:57 pm

    Salamalikum,

    Sorry for posting so many times and for being extremely premature in writing what I have written above. But, this is to clarify something. I’ve been able to gather more information on Dr. Farhat Hashmi and al-Huda including a first-hand account, and it is absolutely authentic, inshaAllah and confirmed what I had thought. And, Allahmdulillah she and her instituition have been doing great work. Also, the activities of al-Huda are overseen by authentic scholars who have learned at the feet of other true scholars and have ijazats.

    No ArRahman ArRaheem thing going on here. Of course, my opinion has no weight here but I wanted to clarify that in no way there is any comparision or link being made here between ArRahman ArRaheem and al-Huda.

    Neena, her work/preaching is not restricted to only rich people. People can come to her place from other parts of the city or get tapes/CD, etc. And, isn’t it possible that her students will eventually branch out and preach in other parts of the city and country. Also, take a look at: http://www.alhudapk.com/social-welfare/ to see their social work.


  25. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 5:05 pm

    Faisal…no, I don’t mind at all. Thanks for pointing out.


  26. SELF (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 5:41 pm

    The need is to come back to Original Islam taught by Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), and call to Unite Muslim as a one NATIOn.

    Posted by: Planner at May 19, 2007 03:35 PM

    Planner, grow up. There are 72 or so sects claiming to follow that original Islam of 1400 yeas ago. Which one of them we should follow? This is the problem with you Mullah types that you don’t think and are unable to even realise the basic realities.


  27. Saima (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 6:18 pm

    Brother Ibrahim, my basic point is that lets not support a society where religion is depicted as a cult practice-more so ‘Vatican or Saudi’ -styled Islam.

    For many years we are witnessing an overflow of all sorts of religious preachers be it Farhat Hashmi, Baber Chaudray or notorious figures are Fazl-ur-Rehman and that ever present masjid ka imam. Whether you agree or disagree with them is another issue, but how they all are geared towards changing the socio-economic and political fabric society from their perspective is and should be a matter of concern.

    Most people attend congregations and other religious gatherings with a cause to purify their lives and to learn about religion but are instead caught with the baggage that comes with it. It is this ‘baggage’ dictating how one should live, work, and socialize etc in a ‘pure’ religious manner that is actually breaking our long existed social fabric.

    Let me give you an example. A few weeks ago my house cleaner left work complaining that it hinders her faith. She informed us that a lady in a ‘waaz’ as asked women to stop working as it is their husband’s duty to work. She is also demanding a separate place for herself in order to observe purdah from her namahram in-laws as she lives in a two room slum squatter with a family of 10. The result is that she has created a friction in her home life where there are alternative resources to relay upon and with one less person in her household production the future is bleak.

    Wouldn’t it be better if religious congregations focus more on issues such as bribery, social security, economic saving and income generation, religious tolerance etc. It doesn’t take much effort to penetrate such civic thoughts in people but Pakistan is a country where religion has long being uses as a doctrine to control the thought process and to maintain the status-quo of the ruling elite (read feudal). You must be familiar with the Mullah-State alliance, where the religious dogma supported Pakistani government in covert war in Kashmir, Afghanistan for their personal gains and incited sectarianism in Pakistan and most of all killed and rape men and women during the 1971 Bangladesh war (Who can forget the Al-Badar, Al-Shams factions of Jamaat-e-Islami factions)

    …and you still want to enlighten yourself from the teaching of these ‘scholars’ even if they are purely for the sake of preaching. Believe me they have bigger agenda and are imposed upon us to shape our minds in a certain manner.


  28. Tamed~. (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 7:38 pm

    Its is good to see in this blogg that almost everyone begins their lettter with Assalam-o-alaikum, SOMETHING NEW ON KMB..


  29. One Karachite (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 8:34 pm

    Assalamu Alikum,

    Excellent Work!.
    Dear sister keep up the good work. I wish boys and girls in my family could join these lectures in Gulshan.

    Don’t let these people bother you. They don’t realize but their hearts have ill against Islam. They intentionally or unintentionally play into the hands of ‘shaitan’.


  30. SELF (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 8:58 pm

    “They intentionally or unintentionally play into the hands of ‘shaitan’.”

    Even Hakeem ul Ummat considered “deen e Mullah fee sbeelillah fasaad”. Do you consider him playing into the hands of ‘shaitan’ too? You already consider Quaid e Azam, Kafir e Azam anyway.


  31. baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 9:17 pm

    Self I am realy interested in knowing the names of 72 or so sects. Can you name them here? Come on, it should not be that difficult. Is it?


  32. SELF (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 9:27 pm

    Are you saying there are no sects and they do not differ on what real Islam is?


  33. XYZ (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 9:36 pm

    Pakistanis love to get involved in a new fitnah every few years. First, there was this jerk Israr-o-Ramooz who wanted cricket to be banned because women may get excited looking at a bowler licking and shining his cricket ball. Then Zulmatul-ul-Haq started the greatest phaddaa of all time : Khudahafiz is wrong, Allah hafiz is correct. Why? because Khuda is God, but god could be any god, so Allah is the real God. What an idiot. Now, everyone had to change their muhavarahs and other usage of words.
    For example, I could not say Khuda-na-khwastah, Allahnakhwastah will be more appropriate. Then I had to unlearn all the sher-or-shairee of my culture, and learn new style of Uru poetry.
    For example. arz kyaa hae:

    Mudaaee laakh buraa chaahae kyaa hotaa hae
    Vohee hotaa hae jo manzoor-e-allah hota hae.

    As anyone will realize, this whole verse is now messed up. Totally bayvazan.

    After Allah-hafiz fitna, we had this Iqra iftna.
    Half of the companies and schools in Pakistan are now named Iqra this or Iqra that. And, I bet the juhulaah don’t even know what Iqra means!

    Then sudenly all chowrangis of Karachi became Allah Vaali Chowrangis. Yaar logo’n ko jahan jagah millee, aik ugly sculputre with asmaa-e-hasnaa khaRaa kar diya. Nah sir dekha nah pair, her jagah Allah Vaalee Chowrangees ban gayee.

    Then some criminal tax evading zardari type business man thought that it will be better to put one attirbute of Khudaa :-) on each street light pole.
    So now one can not drive around karachi without bombarded by asma-e-hasnaa. Hey criminal corrupt dudes, I don’t want to see al-karim and al-qudoos all over Karachi on electric poles. Why are they using public property for fooling people?

    And if we didn’t have enough of these idiots and criminal types using Islam to exploit others, we now have this budbakht Farhat Hashmi.

    I have heard cases where women mureedans of FH are asking for talaaq because the husband won’t remove picture frames from their homes! Khuda-o-Akbar….!!!

    BTW, I will be curious to find out if she talks more crap before she had a cup of arq-e-jamal, or she gets more excited after she had a serving of arq-e-jamal.

    She being a so called expert on ahaaadees will know what you are talking about if you ask her this question :-)

    Arq-e-Jamal (Camel’s Urine) : mashroob-e-khaas per some ahaadees in Sahih Bukhari.

    Also, TV channels in KArachi are full of religious programs and as a result people are getting even badmasher. Some channels have given astrology and faa’al baazi an Islamic touch and now you see ilm-e-najoom combined with Islamic programs. Khuda-o-akbar!

    Oh Khuda, save my people from these fitnah parvars!


  34. Neena (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 9:54 pm

    duh neena………..tax equals soodh?

    I should have clarified earlier but the boom of western economy is due to profit and loss banking. Most taxpayers income is not soodh free. Money makes money so higher income groups invest their money heavily in schemes where soodh is involve in many forms. Furthermore, western government invests taxpayer’s money in interest bearing funds (in the form of government bonds, giving out loans etc.). With this supplemented income, they are able to help less fortunates. All in all the social welfare which is given by government to needy is due to Soodh system otherwise there will be none to spare.


  35. Neena (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 10:23 pm

    XYZ,

    Nice points. If everyone is SO religious in Pakistan then why rich is getting richer and poor are getting poorer. I invite all scholars who outlaw all modern conveniences to start living in the tents and feed themselves with water and dates and use camels for transport. This Farhat Hashmi preaching all to take niqab, stays home, and takes care of family. Why can’t she do it first by staying home? For her everything is superfine from studying to taking trips to all over the world instead of staying home and serving her family. What a hypocrite. For veil, I asked her why she is imposing it on us when Muslim women perform Hajj and Umra Unveiled. Her answer to that is it would be a security risk if women are veiled during these rituals. Of course I asked security doesn’t end after these rituals. You know what she said. Life is Allahas amanat. It’s up to him take it whenever he wants. According to her Allah doesn’t take care of his followers when they are praying but all other times we are covered. She seriously needs to do her homework, as she’ll soon run out of simple god fearing ladies.


  36. baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:14 pm

    neena why rich is getting richer and poor getting poorer all over the world? even in developed countries? Islam’s fault?

    Lets hear a hypocrite answer from you.


  37. Neena (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:42 pm

    neena why rich is getting richer and poor getting poorer all over the world? even in developed countries? Islam’s fault?

    No it’s not religion’s fault but people who are twisting it for their benefit. IF those who claim to be religious, are truly one then it shouldn’t happen in Islamic societies as Islam got a system to take care of needy. BTW, no one (non Muslims) in the west is claiming to be Islamic but almost everyone in Majority Muslim countries are.


  38. dost (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:43 pm

    you are wrong, boom of western economy is due to their looting of world’s wealth over the past couple of centuries. take that money out and west is zero. second all the helping of poor comes from deficit ridden budgets. wonder you know about it? get more educated about it.


  39. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:52 pm

    Salamalikum,

    Saying Allah instead of Khuda was just an opinion of a person and no scholar I know thinks it has to be replaced. Don’t abuse/defame others when this opinion is held by few. And, how come naming something Iqra a fitna? Please do explain. The reason you find it a fitna, and Allah knows best, is that you must have general dislike of signs of Islam: dislike Iqra, beard, hijab/niqab, names of Allah on poles etc, etc!! Why does it matter who put up the names of Allah? You should feel the power of Allah that he got even a corrupt man (if that’s true) to do something good. And, it’s not like in general people know who put it up so it doesn’t matter.

    “budbakht Farhat Hashmi”: Calling Shaykha Farhat Hashmi a budbakth? It’s best to hold one’s tongue against saying something bad about a scholar whose is doing so much good and not hurting you. First of all, the women are her students (students of knowledge) and not her mureeds. Secondly, those women most probably are not consulting Shaykha Farhat about their marriages. I’m sure she would advise them to be patient and initially compromise and work to change their husband’s opinions with good akhlaq. In my opinion, these women are making hasty decisions, and unless you are sure that Dr. Hashmi supports them in this, you can’t blame her or other teachers.

    First of all, it won’t be arq-e-jamal. That’s like saying arq of beauty. May be you wanted to say arq-e-jaml (ÿ¨ŸÖŸÑ); jaml means camel. This is a common knowledge and someone doesn’t need to be an “expert on ahaaadees” to know about this. Stop spreading fitna yourself. I have to say you sound paranoid: How many channel are full of religious programming? You can count them in couple of fingers. And, I would need extra hands to count all the fahashi being spread on other channels! May Allah guide you and save us from the real fitna parvars!!

    Neena, what are you talking about. First, you accuse women of al-Huda of not doing social work. When I provided a link, not a peep out of you. Now, you find her a hypocrite because of some corrupted thinking process. Don’t lie that Dr. Hashmi is asking women to just stay at home. She doesn’t stop them from learning as long as they are in proper attire (look at reading material on al-Huda website). And, of course she wouldn’t stop a woman who is properly dressed to go out and preach Islam in the right way, as she is doing. So, she is not a hypocrite, Allahmdulillah. Rather, she is out to serve Islam by focusing on women and since she herself is a woman it has been effective. May be if you people remove your bias and think clearly, you won’t be saying things like this. Allah knows best, but clearly you are either lying or Dr. Hashmi forgot/didn’t know that according to saheeh hadith it is not allowed for women to veil while doing umrah or hajj. There is no two opinions about it. It’s proven and Saudis who force women to wear veil during hajj/umrah are making a mistake. Why Allah made this rule? I don’t know but since it’s proven authentically, then we believe. A scholar might be able to give some an explanation.


  40. baazi (unregistered) on May 19th, 2007 @ 11:56 pm

    have you the slightest idea in absence of a social security system, tons of poor in pakistan benefit directly from zakaat and khairaat. by slandering islam you are basically cutting their life line as you are trying to make people turn away from islam as a result they will be less charitable.

    do you want to be poor’s enemy?


  41. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:23 am

    Ibrahim

    http://www.alhudapk.com/social-welfare/

    The site was down so I was unable to take a look earlier. Good for them. I hope they are really making a difference and that money going to those who deserve; not making its way to foreign trips in the name of tableegh.

    saheeh hadith it is not allowed for women to veil while doing umrah or hajj.

    Right, and what about all other times?

    BTW, since you know everything about Dr. Hashmi, what is the real story about this illegal stay in Canada. I guess according to Islamic law, one can’t abuse the law of the state.

    She is encouraging women to leave their jobs and stay home to take care of thier families and yes tableeghi trip (even to foreign land) is OK which was since forever.

    PS. It’s time to move on so it’s my last comment. I’ve nothing against her or other preachers (everyone has right to speak) but my heart saddens when I see so much suffering.


  42. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:25 am

    Baazi,

    You’re talking in circles


  43. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:34 am

    You’re talking in circles

    how convinient to run away from the truth….


  44. SELF (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:44 am

    From Ayub Khan’s dairies;

    اٹھارہ فروری:

    مغربی پاکستان کی کابینہ سے جماعتِ اسلامی اور سیاسی ملاؤں کے پیدا کردہ مسائل پر بات ہوئی اور کئی فیصلے کیے گئے۔ میں نے کابینہ کو بتایا کہ اصل مسئلہ یہ ہے کہ تحریکِ پاکستان کے دوران اسلامی نظام کی تشریح کیے بغیر ہم نے اس ملک کو اسلام کے مطابق چلانے کا اتنا شور مچایا کہ اس بے وقوفی میں لگام ان مولویوں کے حوالے کردی جو ہمیشہ سے تعلیم یافتہ مسلمانوں اور پاکستان کے مخالف رہے۔ اور پھر انہیں ہمیں یہ بتانے کا سنہری موقع مل گیا کہ یہ ملک کیسے چلایا جائے اور کیسے نہ چلایا جائے۔ باالفاظِ دیگر یہ ملک ان کے حوالے کر دیا جائے کیونکہ اسلام کے ٹھیکیدار اور شارح صرف وہی تو ہیں۔

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/interactivity/specials/1354_ayub_wusat_ms/page14.shtml


  45. SELF (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:45 am

    چار اپریل:

    ایک عربی کتابچہ میرے نوٹس میں لایا گیا جس میں پاکستان اور میرے بارے میں نہایت منفی باتیں کی گئی ہیں اور میری پالیسیوں کو غیر اسلامی بتایا گیا ہے۔ اور یہ اس شخص کے بارے میں لکھا گیا ہے جس نے اسلام کے لیے اتنا کچھ کیا ہے۔ کتابچے پر مصنف کا نام یا تاریخِ طباعت یا مقامِ اشاعت کچھ نہیں ہے۔ یہ کتابچہ غالباً دنیائے عرب میں بڑے پیمانے پر تقسیم کیا جانا تھا۔ شبہ ہے کہ یہ مودودی کا کام ہے جو اس وقت علیل ہے۔ کوئی اور مسلمان ملک ہوتا تو اسے ۔۔۔۔۔ کی طرح مارا جاتا لیکن پاکستان ایک قانون پسند ملک ہے جس کا فائدہ غدار پورا پورا اٹھاتے ہیں۔

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/interactivity/specials/1354_ayub_wusat_ms/page15.shtml


  46. SELF (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:48 am

    تین نومبر:

    معروف مورخ ڈاکٹر امیر حسن صدیقی اسلامی تاریخ، آئین اور سیاسی اداروں کے موضوع پر اپنی تصنیفات لے کر مجھ سے ملنے آئے۔ انکا کہنا ہے کہ اسلام کو بچانے کا واحد راستہ یہ ہے کہ مولوی کا صفایا کردیا جائے۔ میں نے وزارتِ تعلیم اور اطلاعات سے کہا ہے کہ ان سے استفادہ کرے اور انہیں مغربی پاکستان اوقاف بورڈ کی مجلسِ مشاورت میں بھی شامل کیا جائے۔

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/interactivity/specials/1354_ayub_wusat_ms/page19.shtml


  47. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 12:58 am

    by slandering islam

    Don’t be a munafiq and don’t equate Mullhas with Islam or prophet. Now go ahead and talk in circles.

    Self,

    These Mullhas think they’re the only savior for Islam while they haven’t done their homework. Look at NWFP and Baloachistan where they are in majority. Most Heroine comes from that way to karachi and noone even dare to talk about it.


  48. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:03 am

    The fate of East Pakistan was decided by Ayub Khan and his henchmen. He is responisible for Bangladesh. Read Hamood ul Rehman commision report.

    And now these ‘questionabl’ timing of ‘questioanable’ diaries. And by whom? the infamous Gohar Ayub? The same Gohar Ayub who was involved in huge scandals of corruption with his father in law Lt. General Habibullah Khan Khattak. Who in the right mind can trust this criminal?

    And one shoud not forget Fatima Jinah was assasinated during Ayub Khan’s reign.

    It is interesting that poeple like SELF give so much credence to these corrupt personalities. Out of some guilt maybe?


  49. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:08 am

    Wow! someone was listening what I was saying.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6672923.stm

    Hope some of this benefit Pakistan too.


  50. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:22 am

    SELF forgot to note this in Ayub’s diaries :p

    جسٹس کارنیلیس ( چیف جسٹس) نے مجھ سے ملاقات میں بھٹو کے بارے میں حیدر آباد میں اپنے تعریفی ریمارکس کی فضول قسم کی وضاحت کرنے کی کوشش کی۔ جسٹس کارنیلیئس کا مسئلہ یہ ہے کہ وہ عملی سمجھ بوجھ سے عاری ہیں اور انہیں لوگوں کی پرکھ بھی واجبی سی ہے۔

    This justice is one of the most respected persons in our judiciary and country. Look how Ayub the dictator treats him. Same is happening to Justice Ifhtikhar Ch.

    Shameless display of lowlife egoism. And SELF is their customer. What hypocricy?


  51. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:25 am

    وزیرِ خارجہ ( شریف الدین پیرزادہ) سے میں نے مغربی بنگال میں بائیں بازو کی حکومت کے قیام کے مشرقی پاکستان پر ممکنہ اثرات پرگفتگو کی۔

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/interactivity/specials/1354_ayub_wusat_ms/page15.shtml

    is this the same shameless person who was once accused of murder of his wife?

    and is playing the role of devil’s advocate again for another traitor fauji?


  52. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:31 am

    مجھے سونے سے پہلے بیوی نے یہ خبر سنائی کہ میرے چھوٹے بھائی محمد اکرم کے سولہ سالہ بیٹے احمد نے ایک شخص کو پستول سے ہلاک اور چار کو زخمی کردیا ہے جن میں سے دو کی حالت نازک ہے۔ احمد کسی دوست کے ساتھ بس میں مری جا رہا تھا کہ کمپنی باغ نامی جگہ پر ایک لڑکا بس دھونے کے لیے بالٹی میں پانی بھر کر لایا۔ کچھ چھینٹے احمد کے دوست پر پڑ گئے۔ احمد اور لڑکے کی تلخ کلامی ہوئی اور احمد نے لڑکے کو تھپڑ جڑ دیا۔ اس پر ایک دوکاندار احمد پر ڈنڈا لے کر لپکا۔ احمد نے گولی چلا دی دوکاندار مرگیا اور مزید فائرنگ سے چار قریبی لوگ زخمی ہو گئے۔ میں یہ واقعہ سن کر خاصا پریشان ہوا اور خدا سے دعا کی کہ احمد موقع پر ہی کیوں نہ مرگیا۔ یہ کتنی بدقسمتی ہے کہ اس طرح کے فضول رشتے دار آپ کی تکالیف میں اضافے کے علاوہ کسی کام کے نہیں ہوتے۔ قانون کے تحت اب اس سے جو چاہے سلوک ہو اسے اپنے کیے کا خمیازہ بھگتنا ہوگا۔

    and what was his take on his criminal son?


  53. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:35 am

    and how about Ayub’s right hand ‘Nawab of Kalabaagh’? who was killed by his proper sons.

    why?


  54. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 1:46 am

    اطلاع ملی ہے کہ مس فاطمہ جناح کا انتقال ہوگیا ہے۔ سازشی عناصر نے اس موقع پر بھی سیاسی دوکان چمکانے کی کوشش کی ہے اور وہ مطالبہ کررہے ہیں کہ فاطمہ جناح کو قائدِ اعظم کے پہلو میں دفن کیا جائے۔ ایسا کرنے کی صورت میں مزارِ قائد کی شکل بگڑ جائے گی جو ایک ایسی قومی یادگار ہے جس پر تقریباً ایک کروڑ روپے کا خرچہ ہوا ہے۔ میں نے انتظامیہ سے کہا ہے کہ اگر مس فاطمہ جناح کی اس طرح تدفین کے علاوہ کوئی چارہ نہ ہو تو مزار کے کنسلٹنٹ انجینئیر سے قبر کی جگہ کی بابت مشورہ کیا جائے۔ اس موقع پر قومی پرچم سرنگوں کردیا گیا ہے اور تدفین کے دن کو قومی تعطیل قرار دیا گیا ہے۔ جنازے پر میری نمائندگی ملٹری سیکرٹری اور سرکاری نمائندگی ایک وزیر کریں گے۔

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/interactivity/specials/1354_ayub_wusat_ms/page17.shtml

    lol chor ki dhari main tinkaa. the real grave of quaid is in the basement and there is plenty of room there. the upper grave is just symbol and has no connection with the grave underneath. why he chose to lie like that? was he guilty or something?


  55. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:03 am

    کان ( فرانس) میں پرنس کریم آغا خان نے اپنے والد کے گھر پر ڈنر دیا۔ بعد میں وہ مجھے صحن میں لے گئے جہاں انکے والد پرنس علی خان کی عارضی قبر ہے۔ پرنس علی نے وصیت کی تھی کہ انکی تدفین شام میں کی جائے لیکن پرنس کریم نے بتایا کہ شامی حکومت اس کے لئے ایک لاکھ پونڈ بھتہ مانگ رہی ہے۔ میں نے پیشکش کی کہ وہ چاہیں تو پرنس علی کی پاکستان میں تدفین کرسکتے ہیں۔

    LOL he was nuts, how stupid of him to suggest such a lowely thing. Instead of saying that he will try to persuade Syia, this low life chose to make this offer. hahahah


  56. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:05 am

    روسی سفیر نے پیشکش کی ہے کہ انکی حکومت بعض اقسام کا ایمونیشن اور ریڈار آلات فراہم کرسکتی ہے لیکن یہ سب خفیہ رہنا چاہئیے۔ روسی سفیر نے مشورہ دیا کہ مجھے سوویت انقلاب کی گولڈن جوبلی تقریبات میں شرکت کے لئے ماسکو جانا چاہئیے۔ لیکن میں اتنے مختصر وقت میں کیسے وھاں جاؤں جبکہ میں ایک طویل عرصہ بیرونِ ملک رہ کر ابھی ابھی واپس آیا ہوں اور یہاں بہت سے اہم کام نمٹانے کے لئے پڑے ہیں۔ دوسری بات یہ ہے کہ میں ان تقریبات میں دنیا بھر کے کیمونسٹوں کے بیچ کیسا لگوں گا۔ شائد بہت عجیب سا لگوں گا۔

    hahaha stupid stupid stupid

    because of his myopic vision we have become nothing but pawns in the int game.


  57. XYZ (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:18 am

    Allah Hafiz was state sponsored during Zulmat-ul-Haq’s time via TV, radio, by himself and his god damned rufqaa-e-kaar. So it was pushed down the throats of Pakistanis and as a result within a generation you find everyone using Allah Hafiz in Pakistan. In fact, now people would correct you and say, Khuda hafiz nahin, Allah Hafiz.

    Also, now you can not enjoy good poetry like:

    Aik nuktay nay khudaa say judaa kar diyaa!

    especially the double meaning involved:-)

    Sometimes I wonder if Shaikha (my foot) Fitnah Hashmi is being paid by the enemies of Muslims. Why will she target the Muslim middle class women and care to establish a cult like following?

    My fear is that by targetting middle class woman she and her sponsors are making sure that future generation of muslims roti roti kee mohtaaj ho jae. Lower class is lower class, and not much educated except perhaps in urban areas. Upper class is less than tenth of a percent of Pakistan’s population. After 80-100 years of efforts of our buzurgs, it is the middle class Muslim women of Pakistan and India (her target audiences)that have the capacity and the ability to catapult Muslims to the next level….economic, scientific, and cultural. And here comes the enemies agent, the budbakht shaikha, to destroy that hope. To destroy middle class Muslim women’s thinking and therefore destroy the whole nation.

    Another thing is little bit related to our culture and social values. The enemies have figured out that promoting Fitnah Hashmi will ensure destruction of Subcontinental Muslim social values and culture.

    Farhat Hashmi will finally break our family system. East India Company and then the British government mostly left Indian cultures alone….except perhaps screwing around with our eudcation system and as a result we ended up with half assed insitutions like dar-ul-uloom Devband. But yeh badmaash aurat finally hamaray culture kay paRakhchay uRaa dae gee.

    Yes, in our culture though women had dopataas and would cover their head in the presence of older relatives (just like men would would put a cap or hat in such situation), this Fitnah Hashmi type niqabs and takyaa ghilaafs (pillow covers) that she promotes and other recently arabized Muslims of the Sub-continent have promoted have made sure that a girl will avoid her brother-in-laws or father-in-law or cousin brothers. In fact, you can now forget about going to your cousin’s house and watching TV and just hangging around. She does not want male cousins in the house, because in subcontinental warm climate, who would like to wear a burqa or pillow cover on head at their home?

    Forget about dropping by at your bhai and bhaabi’s house. Your bhabi may have to quicky run inside to put a pillow cover on her head or worst, a burqa at your arrival. She wouldn’t like you to be there, at least not for too long. Milnaa Milaanaa kam ho jayae gaa! aanaa jaanaa kam ho jaayae gaa. And by destroying our family lives and social values the enemies would have achieved their goals. Aik panth doe kaaj!
    Musalmaan kee economy khatam karo, taaleem khatam karo, aur in saalo’n kaa culture khatam kar doe.

    Clarification: I am dead against cousin marriages, in case anyone misunderstood me.


  58. zahra (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:24 am

    Salaam,

    Since this is pretty much turning into a conversation (dare i say a ‘dialogue’?)between ‘baazi’ and ‘neena’….

    CHECK THESE OUT YOURSELF:

    http://www.alhudapk.com
    http://www.farhathashmi.com

    the latter has been set up very recently, so give some links the time to be up and working.


  59. zahra (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:41 am

    xyz: It’s so very clear that you have NEVER, NEVER EVER listened to this lady speak or heard what she is all about.

    To compare someone who is just teaching people the Book of God to the British East India Company is a disgrace and testament to your sheer ignorance. And let me just remind you: those who have neither shame nor solid evidence, revert to name calling and swearing.

    Also, may I ask, which great ‘buzurgs’ of the sub-continent have empowered the middle class women to lead the social, economic and political revolution that you are referring to ???

    And if you consider ‘dressing sleeveless’ the much-awaited revolution that Pakistan needs (with all the other problems we have), then that’s just a very narrow anthropological-ecomonmic-political view. To put it in simpler terms: you just don’t know what’s going on.

    “…and when the foolish address them, they say ‘peace’”


  60. zahra (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:41 am

    xyz: It’s so very clear that you have NEVER, NEVER EVER listened to this lady speak or heard what she is all about.

    To compare someone who is just teaching people the Book of God to the British East India Company is a disgrace and testament to your sheer ignorance. And let me just remind you: those who have neither shame nor solid evidence, revert to name calling and swearing.

    Also, may I ask, which great ‘buzurgs’ of the sub-continent have empowered the middle class women to lead the social, economic and political revolution that you are referring to ???

    And if you consider ‘dressing sleeveless’ the much-awaited revolution that Pakistan needs (with all the other problems we have), then that’s just a very narrow anthropological-ecomonmic-political view. To put it in simpler terms: you just don’t know what’s going on.

    “…and when the foolish address them, they say ‘peace’”


  61. zahra (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:43 am

    xyz: It’s so very clear that you have NEVER, NEVER EVER listened to this lady speak or heard what she is all about.

    To compare someone who is just teaching people the Book of God to the British East India Company is a disgrace and testament to your sheer ignorance. And let me just remind you: those who have neither shame nor solid evidence, revert to name calling and swearing.

    I may not agree with her all the way, but your approach (if we can even call it that) to presenting your argument against someone you obviously don’t agree with is, simply repulsive.

    Also, may I ask, which great ‘buzurgs’ of the sub-continent have empowered the middle class women to lead the social, economic and political revolution that you are referring to ???

    And if you consider ‘dressing sleeveless’ the much-awaited revolution that Pakistan needs (with all the other problems we have), then that’s just a very narrow anthropological-ecomonmic-political view. To put it in simpler terms: you just don’t know what’s going on.

    “…and when the foolish address them, they say ‘peace’”


  62. wasiq (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 2:52 am

    @ siddiqi sab aap ki baat main kuch wazan lagta hai waisey bhi aaj kal islamabad main kafi kuch chal raha hai…you never know….!

    @saima dear….sardak merey baap ki nahein hai….and as a habit i NEVER desire what i don’t deserve….and believe you me secular pakistan would be the last thing i would ever wish for….

    @NEENA….nobody in pakistan is rich we are all poor ….even the pakistani’s living abroad in the developed countries are poor…none of them make the one thousand of the richest peoples list….

    @Baazi….you will not believe this…..somebody cutting the expired credit card into halves with a big sharp scissor as per request of the bank cut my green card which was joined togather due to the hot weather or something….at the back of the credit card….what a worthless piece of s*** the renewal process is exhuasting… also nobody at the Dolmen mall gives discount because of THE GREEN CARD….

    @Darinda jee….chelsea won the fa cup….AADAAB ARZZ think of all the F-words for yourself iam too happy to even go there…HA Ha!


  63. SELF (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 3:09 am

    I still don’t understand why we need yet another Molvi or Molvan? What is wrong with the millions of Molvis we already have? Isn’t it already a case of too many chefs (Maulanas) ruining the broth (religion)?


  64. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 4:25 am

    Salamalikum,

    Neena, I thought you were going to stop writing comments. What happened? If you are still open to discussion, inshaAllah, I will give you a very detailed response on what you asked. There are two opinions by scholars on that. Let me know. Also, Dr. Hashmi was asked by ISNA to come to Canada on what’s known as some preacher’s permit. She came and her paperwork was being processed (and it is ok to live until paperwork is done). Then, supposedly she got declined and asked to leave but stayed there to appeal. You are again distorting the facts. She is encouraging the women to set the priorities right. She is saying that a woman’s first responsibility is looking after her home and when that’s settled she could go to work (not that I share her opinion–I subscribe to the view that unless there’s real financial emergency (not materialism) a woman should stay at home). Also, she encourages girls to go to universities and learn Islam (which I also agree with). She did it and how can she preach others not to do it? Her own student would run away from her (and she wouldn’t be this popular) if she was preaching what you’re saying.

    XYZ: You have a very bayhooda zaban, no doubt. Have some haya. Plus, your later comments confirmed my initial observation that you are quite paranoid. May Allah help you and all of us.

    Your comments are quite typical of liberals which try to create fitna by saying ‘our culture’ is being arabized (what a joke), people will become poor, against cousin marriages (anymore proof needed of your brainwashed mind??), etc.

    Islam has been here (in Hind) for over 1000 years and people who wanted to observe all the rules of Islam did so from day one, which included women covering up with abaya/burqa/chador, separation between non-mahram sexes, etc. Don’t think that since people around you or people you knew mixed with non-mahrams, didn’t cover, etc. then it was not done at all here. This goes to show your ignorance. Now that someone you know or someone in your family is doing these things, you find it “foreign” culture. Also, know there have always been people who scoffed at “our culture” of putting on a doppatta on only a part of the head. If you just read Quran you will see the error. Anything in a culture with mostly Muslims against Islam is not part of Muslim culture. Read history, read Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi’s father’s (Abdul Hayy) book Nuzhatul Khawatir, which is breif but indepth history of scholars of Hind and you will find out if the culture is being “arabized” or not.

    It’s narrated both in al-Bukhari and Muslim hadeeth that Rasoolillah (saw) said: “Beware of entering upon women.” A man from among the Ansar said: “O Messenger of Allah, what about the brother-in-law?” he said: “The brother-in-law is death”. So, you shouldn’t expect to mix freely with your bhabhi and if it was done around you, that doesn’t make it right and shouldn’t be part of sub-continent culture for Muslims. This is not an issue of Arab or non-Arab culture…it’s about following or not following the Quran and the Sunnah. Milna milanay khatam nahin hoga. I can’t think of things I would have common with my brother’s wife (although I don’t have one–I’m the oldest son!)to talk about. Your sisters, mother, women-folk can surely talk to your bhabhi and spend as much time as possible and you can spend as much time as possible at your bhai/bhabhi’s house talking to your brother. In fact, in old “sub-continent” culture men used to have “outside bhatak”, where men guests used to sit and women would go inside. Even today, families send men to the “drawing room” and women to “living room”!!! Housh kay nakhun leejeeya.


  65. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 6:10 am

    I still don’t understand why we need yet another Molvi or Molvan? What is wrong with the millions of Molvis we already have? Isn’t it already a case of too many chefs (Maulanas) ruining the broth (religion)?

    Foolish bikering of people like you tells we need more of them. They should be mulitiplied by 10.


  66. Planner (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 6:31 am

    @SELF

    Planner, grow up. There are 72 or so sects claiming to follow that original Islam of 1400 yeas ago. Which one of them we should follow? This is the problem with you Mullah types that you don’t think and are unable to even realise the basic realities.

    Posted by: SELF at May 19, 2007 05:41 PM

    Assalamoalikum!
    Dear SELF, please write the complete hadith.
    Prophet (P.B.U.H.) said that there were 71 sects of Jews out of which only 1 is on right path and all other will be in FIRE, there were 72 sects of Christians and out of which only ` is on right path all othere will be in fire, and there will be 73 sects in my Umma and out of which only will be on right path and all other will be in fire, SAHABA (R.A.) asked what are the qualities of that sect, Prophet (P.B.U.H.) replied they are on My & My Followers (SAHABA R.A)’s path.

    SELF when we go for shopping vegetable we atleast visit 2-3 shops before buying vegetables of worth 25 Rs. but we dont bother about Islam, we dont give it worth of 25 Rs. and think that we are on right path. Prophet (P.B.U.H.) said that the ISLAM will be in its Original position til the walls of Qayamat, Go and investigate about your own Islam.
    Check out your each and every dead whether it is according to the Prophet (P.B.U.H.)’s guidance or not. But i m sure u dont have time to do such activity, u r very busy!! Indeed we have time for all the rubbish activities but we dont have time for the ISLAM.

    May ALLAH guide us to Right path that guide us to HEAVEN! Aameen


  67. Planner (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 6:35 am

    @ BAAZI

    There is no distinction of Mullah’s ISLAM and Liberal ISLAM, Its all your type of people’s mind fever!!


  68. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 6:50 am

    I think Planner bhai you need to check my posts before coming to a conclusion. Thank you.


  69. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 6:54 am

    @ Planner .When Italic font is used, it normally contains part of some other poster’s writing. So the following was written by SELF:

    I still don’t understand why we need yet another Molvi or Molvan? What is wrong with the millions of Molvis we already have? Isn’t it already a case of too many chefs (Maulanas) ruining the broth (religion)?

    And I answered him like this:

    Foolish bikering of people like you tells we need more of them. They should be mulitiplied by 10.

    Hope it clarifies the confusion.


  70. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 7:54 am

    Salamalikum,

    Since this course for women is being held at Umar ibn Abdul Aziz (rahimahullah) mosque and looking at what comments are being made, Allahmdulillah, I have found a very appropriate quote from him:

    Umar ibn Abdul Aziz(rahimahullah)said: Become a scholar if you are able. If you are not able, then be a student. If you cannot, then show love for them. If you are unable to do that, then(at least) do not hate them.

    Learn, people, learn. Learn your religion, inshaAllah.


  71. SELF (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 8:14 am

    Why do all Mullahs have the following in common when a question is asked;

    1. Attack the character of the questioner as anti-Islamic and totally discredited.

    2. Assume that their rhetoric should be acceptable to all without question. Anyone questioning should see point 1 above.

    3. End the so-called reply with a prayer in a tone as if cursing the questioner.

    Did anyone tell these Mullahs that humility is also part of Islam and that their holier than thou attitude is not humility.


  72. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 8:59 am

    Attack the character of the questioner as anti-Islamic and totally discredited.

    Usually the unlearned persons get abusive. These tricks are common in every religion. Scholars always encourage questioning as there is no other way to learn. Usually hypocrite make more noise than true learned person that’s why we suffer more form it.


  73. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 9:39 am

    Self your show of humility is astounding. Maybe others are learning it from you? Do read your own comments after posting them. Chalo agay ho.

    Neena what is the definition of a true learned person? Are you one?


  74. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 10:03 am

    I try to be a decent human being and always try to seek truth and hate hypocrites. I’m a strong believer of free speech so I respect others right to speak. I don’t qualify for religious scholar (I’m a scientist by profession) but I know when I see someone manipulating innocents.


  75. baazi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 10:32 am

    Neena You have to try harder to become decent human being. And truth? From the childhood what we learn to like becomes our reality/truth. Your concept of truth might be true to you at this point of time but perhaps false for others. My own experince tells me what I consider as truth today, might not be the same as I learn newer things. Be flexible in that regards. Always.

    I don’t qualify for religious scholar (I’m a scientist by profession) but I know when I see someone manipulating innocents.

    Doesn’t your science tell you to first learn the unknown topic before jumping to conclusions? How come your sceince degree give you authority to slander religious scholars? Now that is a very unscientific way of dealing with sensitive topics.


  76. Neena (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:21 am

    How come your sceince degree give you authority to slander religious scholars?

    Baazi,

    Right, but it does give me a technique to differentiate between right and wrong (professional hazard ;). As long as these ladies are working for the uplift of society instead of teaching morals, I’m all for it.

    Great minds agree to disagree. It’s nice talking to you. Anyway no offence intended. Weekend is almost over and I need to go back to research work.


  77. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:25 am

    Care to support your claims with an authentic links.

    Neena, that was you who accused you so you should have come up with proofs first? I don’t want to get engaged with you further since I know spoilt brats like you are everywhere to screw the things up. Ask yourself first what have you done for Islam before raising finger on Farhat. Come up with solid documentary proof or keep quiete. There’s no need of trolling here and spoil this thread.

    It’s so sad that a GOOD Topic has been hijacked. Anyway Zainab, ghabrana nahi, keep posting such things in future! *Thumbsup!*

    Wasiq Mian, ISB me tu boht kuch chal raha hay, tum kis kis ki baat karo gey aur waise khichri tu aaj kal London me bhe pak rahe hay *wink*


  78. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:30 am

    someone should inform that poor Saima that Secularism is taking its last breathe these days. See what happened in Turkey, a guy who had religious belief got vote in majority and secular govt which belives in “Equal rights for all” came up to stop that Minister. Stop living in dreams Saima N. :-)


  79. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:33 am

    Right, but it does give me a technique to differentiate between right and wrong (professional hazard ;).

    WoooT? Using science to EVALUVATE what’s wrong or right?? eh, which LITMUS paper do you use to perform your test? I never heard such nonsense from any scientist.


  80. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:36 am


    And I answered him like this:

    very well said and you’re right. *grin*


  81. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 20th, 2007 @ 11:52 am


    Umar ibn Abdul Aziz(rahimahullah)said: Become a scholar if you are able. If you are not able, then be a student. If you cannot, then show love for them. If you are unable to do that, then(at least) do not hate them.

    Thanks Ibrahim and no doubt we all do one thing, that is to “HATE THEM” and then we claim ourselves as educated and Enlightened. Leave them! you and me both have experienced same cabal a lot on Adil’s website. they are not different at all,specially that SELF guy is also part of ATP :-)


  82. Neena (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 12:40 am

    Ever heard of Logic?

    Science doesn’t revolve around Litmus test. There are branches that give one power to think, which conveniently defamed by all conservative minds around the world.


  83. Neena (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 1:49 am

    While I was searching for a link about why I don’t like Dr. Hashmi’s teaching, I come across KMB Archive.

    If you all agree on what she said about earthquake, then I’ve nothing to say to you. It’s one thing to say it’s Allah’s whish but call all of them SINNER!! No wonder she wants to settle in Canada.


  84. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 2:40 am

    Neena what “Logic” did you use to accuse Farhat first as if you knew her but later you said:

    As long as these ladies are working for the uplift of society instead of teaching morals, I’m all for it

    You don’t even know her and would have read some stuff in some online paper and you concluded something about her? You even have no idea the importance of MORALS to build a society. Not a mature attitude I must say. Specially when you claim that you are a “scientist”.

    May I tell you that logic doesn’t work everywhere. Similarly “seeing is not beliving” all the time. Scientist tried to prove God by using logic but failed and they had to comeup with something like EVOLUTION/ID or what not to provide something parallel of God. Similarly seeing is not believing all the time. I know I can see sugar in my tea cup but I don;t feel sweetness because I had already tasted some sweet stuff before taking tea.

    I don’t know about others but I do agree with her about the point that Allah does punishes by different means because we as Muslims know that Quran told us about various nations who were involved in immoral activities and then were punished by God. I remember Asrar Ahmad cameup with something very lame as well as pathetic that people of Karachi and Lahore comitted more sins so if God had to give azaab then he would have given to people of these cities first. As if Allah needs Asrar or anyone else permission first? That was first time I had to rethink that whether I should have considerd Dr.Asrar a scholar or not. Whether it’s earthquake or raining, all were defined in science but science itself is nothing but exploring work of God which He demonstrated EVERYWHERE to tell His creatures, Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny(Surah Rahman). The system made by God is very discplined and organized. He doesn’t perform some unogranized “magic” to demonstrate what He wants. When God says that mountains would fly like cotton at day of Qaymah then it shouldn’t be taken as something unscientific or some jahalat. In absence of Gravity,nothing would exist in its orignal shape.

    As far as How were people of those areas or whether they were involved in immoral activities or not, you can’t say something concrete neither I can but it’s a fact that God deso punishes on wrong acts and it’s not a hidden secret at all neither He has to follow mine and your scientific knowledge or logics to perform some task.


  85. wasiq (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 4:44 am

    @siddiqi sab……some ppl believe that their touch of hand can make our dal chawal more aromatic than the zaffrani pulao……but i watch BBC food regularly…..and they give the the tardka of Brandy or wine to everything they cook…..which is obviously not halal for you…..lol


  86. baazi (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 6:05 am

    Wasiq you simply give in to the drift of your ‘canned thinking process’. What is the source of your information that goray use brandy and wine in everything they cook? No they dont. In some dishes yes. But not all.

    If BBC program protrays it wrongly then atleast you should be smart enough not to take everything at face value.

    On the other hand they do dirnk. Every year nearly 8000 die because of alochol in UK. You call that smart?


  87. Neena (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 8:12 am

    To All,

    All public figures are up for scrutny. Dr. Hashmi and her organization is not above everyone. I heard something about her, so I asked. But still noone gave me proof that she didn’t violate the Canadian law and preach irresponsibly.

    Adnan,

    You won!


  88. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 11:06 am

    it’s not matter of who won or lost- It’s all about your immature accusation on someone without backing your statment. As far as her canadian immigration’s story, obviously, noone is above the law so is Hashmi. If she stayed illegally somewhere then it’s a wrong thing but the point is many pakistanis including politicians as well as Pakistani students stay illegally in US. Did you ever raise voice against them? why farhat only? just because she has some sort of relation with the religion.

    By the way,what kinda research do you make?care to share your research papers and articles published in international magazines? let me know so that I can search on ‘Google Scholar’ ?

    @Baazi: Wasiq is one of our “asset” of KMB. He’s as innocent as our Meera or Malika Sharawat and as harmless as our very own CM Arbab Sahab. In short, he’s an interesting fun who is having fun so enjoy! :-)


  89. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 11:12 am

    @baazi: Wasiq ko jab se Irish Coffe ka pata chala hay, woh sab goroun ko Irish samjhney laga hay even Oprah Winfrey ko bhee!


  90. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 11:23 am

    Salamalikum,

    Neena, you at least got something right. Adnan definitely won. Great comment, Adnan. I can’t believe someone like Dr. Israr Ahmed (although I don’t agree with most what he says) who supposedly has deep insight can say a thing like that! Allahu Akbar

    Neena, first, did the writer in the KMB post you mentioned give a direct quote from Dr. Hashmi? He parapharased her. And, I’m willing to part with a big chunk of money to say that she didn’t exactly say what the writer has written. If she did, she is wrong. It was definitely azaab of Allah on the people, but that doesn’t mean anyone who suffered was a sinner. I think either it says in Quran or a hadith (I will check up on it so don’t quote me as yet) that when Allah wants to bring upon azaab on a place because people were doing something wrong, it comes on the whole community because people didn’t try to stop or overlooked the sins or let the sins become common. Hence, I suspect Dr. Hashmi must not have said that ALL are sinners.

    Finally, you should see the whole picture: People punished in this world for a sin will be spared in the hereafter. And, people who escape punishment here by the leave of Allah, they will be punished on the day of qiyamat, if Allah wants. So, people who suffered or were killed, this could be there kaffara for the hereafter, inshaAllah. So, that this was azaab shouldn’t be a surprise. And, we should trust Allah’s maslihat. Allah knows best.


  91. SELF (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 11:28 am

    So because the earthquake came on JI, JUI and Jihadi dominated areas so these are the sinners.

    No surprise there.


  92. Hasan Zuberi (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 7:46 pm

    Alot has already been written about Dr. Hashmi, a PhD in Islamic Studies from Glasgow University UK, so I will stick to some facts:

    She is NOT a Sunni Aalima but a scholar (with her foreign Doctrate) of the Salafi school … means she does not believe in Taqleed (or following) like the 04 Sunni madahibs do (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafai & Hanbali).

    Some hardcore facts can be read about her at:

    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10596

    where you can see the views of Ulema-e-Haq from Dar-ul-Ifta Jamia Banori (SITE) Karachi & Dar-ul-Ifta Jamia Rasheed (Nazimabad) Karachi.

    May Allah protect us all from the likes of Dr. Hashmi, Br. Chaudhry & Dr. Ghamdi (Ameen)


  93. Neena (unregistered) on May 21st, 2007 @ 11:48 pm

    with her foreign Doctrate

    Religions do not have any boundaries. It doesn’t matter from where she studied. Only stick to what she teaches.

    LOL! at above. I’ve a problem that Dr. Hashmi is too conservative in her thinking and the guy (Hasan is talking about) thinks she is too liberal. Yeah right, he forgot to add she can’t teach or learn as she is a woman. She is right or wrong one thing, but she did figure out where the demand lies. The trick mullahas were exploiting for long. Have you guys seen how there is no peep from them whatever is happening in Islamabad?

    Adnan,

    I’m still a young researcher (or it could be I spend too much time surfing instead of working ;), so no Google Scholar for me yet. Nawazish for asking for it. It did make my day.

    Though I never said breaking law by common men is OK but public figures/moral leaders need to be more careful about such offences as people look upto them. Anyway, it’s not that bad as some make it but she make it worst by not mentioning ‘Canada’ in her resume (can be seen at her website).


  94. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 1:56 am

    Neena, the way you approach different issues, I think you’ll always be a “young” scientist[read Immature](No offense). plagiarism maybe? *grin*


    Have you guys seen how there is no peep from them whatever is happening in Islamabad

    you mean that scholars whom you called Mullahs said nothing against Lal Masjid? do you mean that? If yes then I must help you to earn some knowledge that Fedration of Madarassahs[Wifaq-ul-Madaris] had already condemned the way Lal Managment taking things in hand and they canelled their membership. what one says to them or to others when the president of a country himself belives in DANDA policy?


    but public figures/moral leaders need to be more careful

    true so what do you say about most highlited public figures like Altaf and Musharraf? ever thought to fly all the way from your place to Islamabad and then London to give these guys some lectures?


    she make it worst by not mentioning ‘Canada’ in her resume

    eh, when MQM’s Amir Liaquat could write “Dr” after earning some online degrees and when Maleeha Lodhi could be called a Phd Doctor after copying research work of someone else then why can’t Farhat? I don’t say Farhat is right but why there is a difference between two? :-)

    I think it’s better for you to get back your Dexter’s Lab and produce something good. So far you didn’t even mention what kind of research are you doing. Now don’t say that you work at FBI Labs and your assignment is to make a gadget which could help to find Osama :>- Have fun and bye from my side =)


  95. Zainub (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 1:59 am

    Walikum assalam to all those who said salam.

    I have refrained from participating in the slagging match of a discussion this post has unfortunately become, and that I never intended it to become, but things have come to that stage now, where I must re-emphasize something that almost everyone reading the thread has misunderstood.

    The program I intended to introduce to readers of this blog was and is in no way affiliated with either the AlHuda Institute, or Dr Farhat Hashmi, or even Huma Najmal Hasan. Sister Huma was only their on the request of the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Muslim Development and Research Centre, who are responsible for organising the whole affair. Furthermore, I only mentioned Dr. Farhat as a name of refrence to introduce the name of Sister Huma to those who may have not been familiar with her. It is sad that amogst all the discussion about Dr Farhat the real intended purpose of this post has been lost some where.

    And yes, before I forget, I am not disassociating Dr Farhat’s name from the program because I share some the criticisms that has been raised against her during the course of this discussion above, but I do not want potential students of this course to have any misleading notions about who is behind the program.

    As for the discussion it self, once again, some of the nature of the comments were extremely disturbing, and I’m not saying that because I endorse or reject a particular point of view expressed by some party, but just looking at the general manner in which we tend to community online. Would you guys have really been shouting and name calling at each other’s throats if this discussion was to happen in real life? Please remain civil. And bother to read some of the rules provided in the Terms of Service you agree to by posting comments.

    Another point, many of you have been passing comments on the credibility of several well qualified ulema, may I ask what qualifies us to do so? To Mr. Hassan Zuberi in particular, whose comment was the one that forced me to hit the comment button my self. Do you even know how much respect that four great imams shared for each other? How can you term any scholar a “fitna” based just on the fact that they follow a different school of thought than your self? If you have time, or bother, please check out this link, I quote from it below:

    The Islamic world has produced several learned Islamic scholars (Imams), but out of these, four became more famous and their teachings spread in different parts of the world.

    It is a misconception that a Muslim should follow any one of these four schools of thoughts i.e. Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali or Maliki. There is no proof whatsoever in the Qur’an or any authentic Hadith that a Muslim should only follow one of these four Imams.

    We must respect all the great scholars of Islam, including the four Imaams, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Hunbal and Imam Malik (may Allah be pleased with them all). They were great scholars and may Allah reward them for their research and hardwork. One can have no objection if someone agrees with the views and research of any one or more from these four great scholars of Islam.


  96. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 2:02 am

    Self,kid don;t forget that EQ came first in ISB which collapsed Margala towers[if I remember the name right]. Dekha nahi kaisa elite class k residents jinhey dance parties aur mastion se fursat nai hoti thee aur bari bari post hold karta thay us subha khali chaddi banyan mey wo sarak par kharay toba toba kar rahay thay aur sari raat aur subha wo sarak par soyee. The most damaged area was AJK where PPP was in majority :-). If now even kashmiris are not acceptable for you then i think wahga is not far away from pakistan and you can cross the border anytime you want. *grin*


  97. baazi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 2:08 am

    @adnan

    what one says to them or to others when the president of a country himself belives in DANDA policy?

    you are right, this is root cause of our social problems. one man show gives birth to nothing other than intolerance. no person and no group is immune to it.

    ‘Dexter’s Lab’ hahahahaha now that was funny. hahahaha


  98. Zainub (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 2:23 am

    Continued from my previous comment…

    Also, I have personally heard Dr Farhat rejecting the notion that she belongs to particular school of thought, she insists that she is a Muslim only, and neither a Hanafi, Malaki, Shafi, Salafi aur Jaferi, Wahabhi, or anything else. That is something I have heard may self, the rest Allah knows best.

    And finally, because I did mention Dr Farhat’s name in my post, I feel it binding one me, that I relate what my impression of her is through whatever little I have seen and heard of her and in the course learned from her, and those from others belonging to her institute. My first encounter with her institute Alhuda was when I took a 15 day summer course by the name of Reality Touch at their previous centre above Metro Shopping Mall about 5 years ago. She did not come to our lectures personally then, but the course was organized by her institute, and not once, were we, as young 16 year olds were told to a)wear the niqab b)wear the burqa c)not work d)divorce your husband because he prevent you from doing a or b, or encourages you to do c, i.e. not work, or any other the allegations slapped at her during this discussion. Again, this is what my personal experience is, if some one else has a different personal experience, I will not know. I have never heard her live, but I have listened to her detailed lecture on several topics, including the concept of purdah in Islam, which was amongst the several things discussed here. According to the audio cassette Purda Kyon, Dr Farhat never said that wearing niqab was a must. Many scholars around the world, not just Dr. Farhat, have different views on the niqab, some say it is mustahab (which means that it is not farz, but if you do it, you’ll get sawab and it will be better), indeed I heard Dr Zakir Naik saying exactly the same on television the other day, others, including many scholars in the West, and the very well known and well respect Sheikh Nuh Keller, have advised Muslim women in non-Muslims countries not to wear the niqab because it can lead to harassment and act as a barrier to da’wah (inviting people to Islam). Please see Shayk Farz Rabbani’s (who is one of my favorite scholars, and who has very recently migrated from the US to Pakistan, in order to be a student of Mulana Taqi Usmani) verdict on the niqab here and Ustadha Zaynab Ansari’s veiws on it here.

    It does not surprise me that many of the issues raised here relate to matters of Fiqh, matters that learned, well qualified ulema have spent years and years, sometimes their entire lives researching on, and yet still, whenever they learn of another scholar who has come to a different conclusion, they never label the other one as wrong, or call them names. They respect each other’s views, and always say Wallahu Alam (And Allah Knows Best) at the end. Yet we, we the people who spend next to no time of our life trying to seek knowledge of deen (compared to how much these people put in anyway), we are so very quick to cast judgments on their years of hard work and research. And this is totally irrelevant to the discussion being about Dr Farhat or Dr Chaudry or Dr Ghamdi any scholar, we’re not scholars our selves, we should leave these fiqhi misail to the scholars and focus on every day Islam. When these scholars them self do not pass judgments on each other, we are not one too. And that shall the last thing I will say on this matter. Wasalam.


  99. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 3:59 am


    we should leave these fiqhi misail to the scholars and focus on every day Islam. When these scholars them self do not pass judgments on each other, we are not one too. And that shall the last thing I will say on this matter

    I agree with you. Sometimes we[including myself] cross the border when criticize someone who has some relation with Islam. Anyways, I really liked what you said. Could be a good ending of a good topic which turned into something very different,asusual.


  100. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 4:24 am

    Salamalikum,

    I wrote a short comment but lost it, and don’t have energy to write again. But, I second what sister Zainub has said about not introducing fiqhi masail here. Zuberi, you shouldn’t have introduced revilement of scholars. I have lots to say to your little comment (taqleed, ulema-e-haq??) and the extremely biased sunniforum. Shame on you for not calling her Sunni and naming her in the same breath as Babur Chaudhry.

    Zuberi, use some mislihat…know what this forum is. We were talking about the place of Islamic teaching today with those who thought “Mullahs” shouldn’t teach us Islam today, and your hatred for anything-ahl-e-hadith blinded you and led you to write your comment!


  101. SELF (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 5:15 am

    “don;t forget that EQ came first in ISB which collapsed Margala towers”

    Margala tower collapsed because of constriction flaw. If it were not that, all of the towers should have collapsed. btw one of my own teachers died in that tower…he was very religious.


  102. SELF (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 5:24 am

    But despite that where did most people die? In the most religious, orthodox and jihadi/mullah supporting areas like Qazi Hussein Ahmad’s.

    One funny comment that came out from Qazi et al at the time was ‘this is due to the sins of people and corruption in the election by government’…hmmmm..who are they calling sinners and corrupt when they are the ones dying in earthquake? :) At the same time we do know Qazi kee zubani that he did a deal before election with the then ISI chief in the presence of the then PM Jamali…hmmmm… I guess God did send the earthquake to the right people.


  103. SELF (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 5:43 am

    “we should leave these fiqhi misail to the scholars”

    Problem is who are these scholars? Could someone please name a few names? There are millions of Mullahs around surely a few thousand names shouldn’t be a problem. Trouble is any name that comes up turns out to be either a terrorist or a crack pot, if not bit of both.

    This leaves only us mere mortal to discuss these issues and try to work out some solutions. Of course Mullahs, and Mullah wannabees here would not like this freedom from their religious jageerdari. Tough luck.


  104. Neena (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 7:07 am

    Self,

    You hit the nail right at the head. Looks like all the scholars are above law and we’re not allowed to point finger at them. I wonder why?


  105. baazi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 11:29 am

    Neena the little scientist, do you think muslims did 911?


  106. XYZ (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 11:34 am

    * followed by Ibrahim’s comments.
    ****** followed by my comments

    *The reason you find it a fitna, and Allah knows best, is that you must have general dislike of signs of Islam: dislike Iqra, beard, hijab/niqab, names of Allah on poles etc, etc!!

    ********
    Yes, it is a fitnah to associate beard (a fashion statement) with Muslims. Plus, most daakoss and chore-uchakas have beard in Pakistan these days. So what is the point?
    Also, it is jahalat to name every thing in Karachi Iqraa-XXX or Al-fatah. Muslims ought to be more creative than that. And hijab is ugly, niqab is only marginally romantic, and both have nothing to do with Muslims. And, please tell Zardari types to not fool Karachiites by painting al-qudoos and ar-rahman everywhere. This is no way to turn their black money into white.

    *Islam has been here (in Hind) for over 1000 years and people who wanted to observe all the rules of Islam did so from day one, which included women covering up with abaya/burqa/chador,

    ****** Now what is abaya? some new invention to enslave women? oh…they might feel secure in it:-)

    *Read history, read Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi’s father’s (Abdul Hayy) book Nuzhatul Khawatir, which is breif but indepth history of scholars of Hind and you will find out if the culture is being “arabized” or not.

    ****** Thanks. Last time I had a chance to visit Nadvah, I got too fascinated by the swimming pool in Chhattar Mahal. Saw Nadwa across Gomti from the Chhattar Mahal’s roof, but Nadva was closed that day. I have more respect for Nadvaa than Dar-ul-Uloom Devband, whose founder Qasim Nanatwi must have made some kind of deal to come back to India for starting dar-ul-uloom from exile in Mecca. And, Britishers probably loved the idea of him coming back and wasting the time of future generations of Muslims. If there was no deal, why would Brithish allow him to come back to India!

    Atleast the Farangi Mahal people were more honest to Muslims. On my visit to Farangi Mahal, when I asked an ex-teacher of the school (Madrassa) at Farangi Mahal why they closed the madrassa, he thought that it was a disservice to Muslims to run the school when good families were sending their kids to other schools and only qasaaees and darzees were sending their kids to this famous long time school of Muslims in India. I feel now that it was a good decision. Jis taaleem say aik shakhs apnee rozee nah kamaa sakay aur seTho’n kee zakat kaa muhtaaj ho jaae, aisee taaleem ko khatam kar dyaa jaae.

    *It’s narrated both in al-Bukhari and Muslim hadeeth that Rasoolillah (saw) said: “Beware of entering upon women.” A man from among the Ansar said: “O Messenger of Allah, what about the brother-in-law?” he said: “The brother-in-law is death”.

    ********* Please come out of Behesti Zevar era.
    Atleast, Ashraf Ali Thanvi was quite progressive for his time. While there are lots of khirafaat in terms of his personal opinions in the book, at least, considering that the book was written hundred years ago, it was quite educational for the Muslim women of India of that era.

    For example, he must have had guts to claim that a Muslim Man and woman can get married just in presence of two witnesses – i.e. without any Mullah. He showed disdain for early marriages among Muslims ( a favorite of Pakistani Mullahs), advised against extra-wide age difference between bride and groom, made an effort to teach arithmetic and accounting to Muslim women, instructed Muslim women on use of post office and postal services etc etc. And, most remarkably, he advised Muslim women not to read tafseer of Surah Yusuf, claiming there is too much Ishq-Maashooq in it:-)
    He also advised Muslim women against reading poetry… plus he wrote other stuff I have problem with…but atleast he tried to reform the condition of Muslim women 100 years ago, by trying to move them into the 20th century…unlike Fitnah Hasmhmis of Pakistan who want to take all Muslims back to the eight century.

    And while we are at this topic, please enlighten us if according to Sahih Bukhari (and perhaps other sahah Sittah) it is more therapeutic to take camel’s urine nihaar moonh or is it better to drink it after iftaari?
    In case you have trouble answering this, please contact that fitnah shaikhani hashmi.

    Daikhyae, javaab nah dae kar maayoos nah keejyae gaa ;-)


  107. XYZ (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 12:16 pm

    * Zahra’s comments

    ****** My comments

    *Also, may I ask, which great ‘buzurgs’ of the sub-continent have empowered the middle class women to lead the social, economic and political revolution that you are referring to ???

    ******* Buzurg does not only mean men with 6 feet beards. I meant the people who started girls college at Aligarh Univ, the Muslim community that supported the founding of Lucknow Univeristy, the man who founded Osmania University, the people who established Peshawar University and so on — all over India.
    These were teachers, men and women, Muslim and non-Muslims.

    *And if you consider ‘dressing sleeveless’ the much-awaited revolution that Pakistan needs

    ****** I don’t get excited about women’s arms or their Takhnaas, but before you respond again to any male on any blog, please understand that people who think women should be all covered around naamehram men, also believe that women should not speak and write to naamehram men. Please seek Fitnah Auntie’s advice before you press another key!

    Roz-e-hashar aik aik alphanumeric key kaa hisaab dainaa ho gaa!


  108. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 2:28 pm

    Quran(57:16)

    کیا ابھی تک مومنوں کے لئے اس کا وقت نہیں آیا کہ خدا کی یاد کرنے کے وقت اور (قرآن) جو (خدائے) برحق (کی طرف) سے نازل ہوا ہے اس کے سننے کے وقت ان کے دل نرم ہوجائیں اور وہ ان لوگوں کی طرف نہ ہوجائیں جن کو (ان سے) پہلے کتابیں دی گئی تھیں- پھر ان پر زمان طویل گزر گیا تو ان کے دل سخت ہوگئے- اور ان میں سے اکثر نافرمان ہیں

    in English

    Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient

    Anyone who claims to be a Muslim, should ask themselves first whether “The time” has come for them or they are still busy in raising fingers on others. All I know that the above mentioned Surah changed the entire life of a dacoit who later become a ‘Wali’ of Allah. I think our hearts are more hard and black that we don’t feel anything at all.


  109. Hasan Zuberi (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 5:25 pm

    @ NEENA:

    >> I’ve a problem that Dr. Hashmi is too conservative in her thinking and the guy (Hasan is talking about) thinks she is too liberal. Yeah right, he forgot to add she can’t teach or learn as she is a woman. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html

    @ ZAINUB:

    Sister, you took my comments in the wrong perception … Yes I am aware of the tolerance shared among the four Imams (pls be clear that the term Imam is used here only as a leader / guide).

    I never called her a fitna, but yes i stick to my point that she is not qualified enough to teach & preach.

    Secondly, the link I posted in my previous comments, you can read the Fatwa of 2 Dar-ul-Ifta: Jamia Binoria & Jamia Rasheed regarding Dr. Hashmi and her teachings.

    now … the paragraphs (in italic) you posted are the base of Salafi-sect (Ahl-hadith or Ghair muqalid) they does not believe in following (Taqleed).

    There are two episodes which contradicts each other from the life of Prophet (SAW)… where once he lead the prayers while sitting as he was not feeling well and all the sahaba (RAA)followed him and also offered their salat while sitting.

    At a different occassion near to his death, he lead the namaz sitting but he asked Hazrat Abu Bakr (RAA) to stand right behind him and all sahaba followed the jamat standing.

    It is only the taqleed which makes us understand how to differentiate and follow the right path.

    Imam Abu Hanifa (Hazrat Nauman bin Thabit) studied under 3 Sahaba-e-Karam … hence he took the guidance from them and shared with his students …

    Taqlîd or Ittibâ in essence, simply refers to the practice of an unqualified, lay person (in a specific field of specialisation) submitting to and accepting the authority of an expert in that field, without demanding proof and justification for every view, opinion or verdict expressed by such an expert authority.

    We all do taqleed in our daily lives, we never question a heart specialist or a teacher even when they told us about the 9 planets (which has increased upto 10 including the demoted Pluto) ?

    The essence of guidance is derived from the Holy Qur√£n – “Hudan li al-Nas” (“A Guidance for Mankind). But this guidance and its laws are based on fundamental principles, the details of which have been entrusted to and consigned by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu √Ålayhi Wasallam) in order to explain them to mankind.

    For example, the Holy Qur√£n says: [i] “Aqimus-Salaat” [/i] (“establish prayer”). It does not define the method as to how the prayer should be established; how the various postures should be performed; the mode of recitation of Surah, etc. The complete method of prayer i.e. “Salaat” is explained by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu √Ålayhi Wasallam).

    [i] “Wa ‘Atuz-Zakat” [/i] (“And give charity”). Now the Zakaat amounts payable on gold, silver, cattle, land, produce, etc. are only known through the Ahadith and there is no mention of it in the Holy Qur√£n.

    [i] “Wa Lillahi `ala an-Nas Hij Al-baiti” [/i] (“It is obligatory on people to perform the Hajj of the House of Allah.) Here again, the method of Tawaf, the number of circumambulations, the details regarding Arafat, Mina, Muzdalifah, the stoning at the Jimar, etc. have all been explained by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu √Ålayhi Wasallam).

    My only concern is … that if you dont know the deepth of religion, you should not involve in preaching … I am not an aalim hence I dont preach.

    Dr. Hashmi is a graduate product of Media just like Babar Chaudhry, Aamir Liaqat Hussain or Dr. Javed Ghamdi.

    They all get funding to spread liberlaism and question the suthority of the clergy … this is what the West did when they started questioning Vatican … hence resulted in seperation of Church & State …. Are we ready to do it ?

    You dont need TV to learn Islam from TV, prophet never used media (dhool batashay) to preach his words of truth … but silently he relied on one-to-one and the result is today we are discussing his religion from our understanding.

    Yes to understand better you always need an Aalim, (it takes 8 years and 14 subjects to be able to earn the title of Maulana … another 3 years for Mufti and 1 year more for Qaza’a) … so that they can guide our understanding and not to go astray.

    More on taqleed you can find at: http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/WhatIsTaqleed.htm

    … And Allah knows the best !


  110. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 22nd, 2007 @ 11:31 pm

    Salamalikum,

    Boy, XYZ, your arrogance is of the highest class. You think you know a lot, but you don’t.

    Yes, it is a fitnah to associate beard (a fashion statement) with Muslims. Plus, most daakoss and chore-uchakas have beard in Pakistan these days. So what is the point?
    Beard is a fashion statement, you say? You call associating beard with Muslims as a fitna. If I don’t reply you, it would be enough for people to see your ignorance and stupid ideas. Ibn Umar reported that Rasoolillah (saw) said: “Closely trim the moustaches, and spare the beard.” (narrated in al-Bukhair, Muslim). So, this is a Sunnah, rather it’s an obligation to leave the beard alone and trim the moustaches. There are many other ahadeeth about it. Let me know and I will most them too.

    Also, it is jahalat to name every thing in Karachi Iqraa-XXX or Al-fatah. Muslims ought to be more creative than that. And hijab is ugly, niqab is only marginally romantic, and both have nothing to do with Muslims. And, please tell Zardari types to not fool Karachiites by painting al-qudoos and ar-rahman everywhere. This is no way to turn their black money into white.

    Now what is abaya? some new invention to enslave women? oh…they might feel secure in it:-)

    Don’t exaggerate: Is every thing named Iqra or al-Fatah, etc. I really believe that your paranoia and dislike for Islamic aqdar lead you to think like that. Also, you say “Hijab is ugly”. Wow! Should I even say anything on this. Your jahalat is well evident.

    There are two opinions on niqab but hijab is a musallima proven and is an obligation. In Surah al-Ahzaab, ayat 59, Allah says (Yusuf Ali translation): “O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.” And in Surah Noor, ayat 33, Allah says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands…” Now, you might say how exactly does these two ayats say to do hijab. Then, hear this: Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: “May Allah have mercy on the women of the early muhajireen. When Allah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)[the surah Noor ayat]“, they tore their aprons and covered their faces with them. (narrated in Bukhari, Sunan abi Daud). Also, it is narrated from Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her) that: “When the verse “That they should cast their outer garments over their persons” was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.” (Sunan Abi Daud). And, you are calling it ugly. Niqab has two opinions and if you want I can will inshaAllah try to post reference for those two as well.

    Thanks. Last time I had a chance to visit Nadvah, I got too fascinated by the swimming pool in Chhattar Mahal. Saw Nadwa across Gomti from the Chhattar Mahal’s roof, but Nadva was closed that day. I have more respect for Nadvaa than Dar-ul-Uloom Devband, whose founder Qasim Nanatwi must have made some kind of deal to come back to India for starting dar-ul-uloom from exile in Mecca. And, Britishers probably loved the idea of him coming back and wasting the time of future generations of Muslims. If there was no deal, why would Brithish allow him to come back to India!

    Atleast the Farangi Mahal people were more honest to Muslims. On my visit to Farangi Mahal, when I asked an ex-teacher of the school (Madrassa) at Farangi Mahal why they closed the madrassa, he thought that it was a disservice to Muslims to run the school when good families were sending their kids to other schools and only qasaaees and darzees were sending their kids to this famous long time school of Muslims in India. I feel now that it was a good decision. Jis taaleem say aik shakhs apnee rozee nah kamaa sakay aur seTho’n kee zakat kaa muhtaaj ho jaae, aisee taaleem ko khatam kar dyaa jaae.

    I’m asking you to look into a book and you went off on a rant about your visit to India and farangi mahal. You didn’t have anything else to say so you ended up saying garbage.

    Please come out of Behesti Zevar era.
    Atleast, Ashraf Ali Thanvi was quite progressive for his time. While there are lots of khirafaat in terms of his personal opinions in the book, at least, considering that the book was written hundred years ago, it was quite educational for the Muslim women of India of that era.

    For example, he must have had guts to claim that a Muslim Man and woman can get married just in presence of two witnesses – i.e. without any Mullah. He showed disdain for early marriages among Muslims ( a favorite of Pakistani Mullahs), advised against extra-wide age difference between bride and groom, made an effort to teach arithmetic and accounting to Muslim women, instructed Muslim women on use of post office and postal services etc etc. And, most remarkably, he advised Muslim women not to read tafseer of Surah Yusuf, claiming there is too much Ishq-Maashooq in it:-)
    He also advised Muslim women against reading poetry… plus he wrote other stuff I have problem with…but atleast he tried to reform the condition of Muslim women 100 years ago, by trying to move them into the 20th century…unlike Fitnah Hasmhmis of Pakistan who want to take all Muslims back to the eight century.

    Don’t you see yourself contradicting. I am for the type of scholarship such as that of Ashraf Ali Thanwi (although I don’t follow his maslak) while you’ve been against it (read your posts again). And, by quoting things from Behasti Zawar you proved my point yourself. Don’t try to protect ‘our sub-continent culture’ (as you say it), just do what is said in Islam. The things you have listed are part of Islam (and therefore Thanwi has said them). So, if they weren’t practiced here, that doesn’t mean it was Islam’s fault. Although, because of your ignorance I guess, you wrote half the story. Yes, no “Mullah” is needed for nikah and two witnesses are required. But, a third person who does the nikah should be knowledgeable person who can give the nikah khutba and the right advice, as was the sunnah of Rasoolillah (saw). ALSO, for woman a wali’s or appointed qazi’s (not the justice sitting on a Pakistani court) permission is required for the nikah to be permissible. May be in your area, women were told not to read the tafseer of Quran and not to learn how to arithematic.

    And while we are at this topic, please enlighten us if according to Sahih Bukhari (and perhaps other sahah Sittah) it is more therapeutic to take camel’s urine nihaar moonh or is it better to drink it after iftaari?
    In case you have trouble answering this, please contact that fitnah shaikhani hashmi.

    No, I will give you the answer. Pray fajr, then drink it nihaar moonh, then take a shower, eat breakfast and go to work. Do it for a couple of weeks and it should relieve your paranoia. Seriously, don’t make fun of proven sunnah that is not mansookh.

    May Allah guide us all and not let us make fun of others who try to practice this deen.


  111. wasiq (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 2:38 am

    Wasiq is one of our “asset” of KMB.

    members of the jury….we the defendent,finds WASIQ guilty as charged!!!!!!!!

    @siddiqi sab c/o Baazi….you are on the money about the FUN part…but you sound like a seventh grade class bully….if you really believe i am as innocent as Malika sharawat than don’t you think other boyz and gals should also get a chance to play with…..???have fun and enjoy….??

    @siddiqi sab c/o baazi…..absolutely not…i was just talking about the cockney’s before camila parker bowles….(HRH or whatever….)

    @Baazi…..you are driving with your hand brakes on in the first gear….change your gears and watch your back….lol

    DISCLAIMER:Terms of Service is D most dreadful piece of s*** i have ever come across in the cyberspace…..please avoid the mention of it at all costs….thanks!@#$%^&*()_+


  112. XYZ (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 4:39 am

    * Ibrahim
    ********** my comments

    *Ibn Umar reported that Rasoolillah (saw) said: “Closely trim the moustaches, and spare the beard.” (narrated in al-Bukhair, Muslim). So, this is a Sunnah, rather it’s an obligation to leave the beard alone and trim the moustaches. There are many other ahadeeth about it. Let me know and I will most them too.

    ******** Most of the ahadees have shady backgrounds. Too many people in between, and sometimes people of dubious character. One can’t certify people over 200+ years….the time after which ahadees were compiled.
    Anyway, this seems like a good compromise. Keep the beard but shave the moonchh…. on the right track buddy, and it may take only another 1400 years to figure out that whole beard thing was the norm for men in 7th century, and norms change over centuries.

    * Also, you say “Hijab is ugly”. Wow! Should I even say anything on this. Your jahalat is well evident.

    There are two opinions on niqab but hijab is a musallima proven and is an obligation. In Surah al-Ahzaab, ayat 59, Allah says (Yusuf Ali translation): “O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.” And in Surah Noor, ayat 33, Allah says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands…” Now, you might say how exactly does these two ayats say to do hijab. Then, hear this: Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: “May Allah have mercy on the women of the early muhajireen. When Allah revealed the words “and to draw

    ******** It is my view that arabic style hijab looks pretty ugly. I also beleive that most arab girls when they wear hijab on tight t-shirts and tight pants, it defeats the purpose. Who cares about hair when khoobsoorat manaazer kahee’n aur hae?

    So, hijab is arab culture…they can do that. Don’t promote arabic style hijabs, niqab in Pakistan. It is not Arabia.

    Now to your Surah-e-Ahzab quote, buddy – it is talking about modesty. If Bukhari is compiled after two hundred years, and the chain begins at Hazrat Ayesha or the other woman you quote, then atleast Ayesha was very young when Muhammad died, and then Bukhari and the other guy is saying that women did what they claim they did, hey it is those women’s prerogative. Just because some women acted the way they did after hearing the quote from Ahzab, and – that is – if you beleive the 200 years chain starting with Ayesha, don’t expect Muslim women all over to be in agreement with that.
    In other words, Quran says be modest and cover your breasts..and some women go and hide in burqa, and other say fine, lets be modest and wear proper clothes…and I think men should be modest too….Now, Farhat Hashmi types claiming that it is a must for women to wear hijab…I think this is not a right thing to do.

    May be you and your Fitnah Hashmi need to rethink the whole issue.

    *Don’t you see yourself contradicting. I am for the type of scholarship such as that of Ashraf Ali Thanwi (although I don’t follow his maslak) while you’ve been against it (read your posts again). And, by quoting things from Behasti Zawar you proved my point yourself.

    ******* My whole point was that thanks for the book reference. I will read it when i find it, also that I have respect for Nadvatul Ulema, also I think FArangi Mahal Madrassa was rightly closed due to lack of interest from educated mulsims, and that darul-ul-uloom devband was perhaps (my guess) allowed by Britishers to be established by Qasim Nanatwi for mischiveous reasons. I mean why will they allow their enemy to come back to India from Mecca. I enjoy history, and was pondering on this fact about Devband (or deoband as we say).

    Regarding Beheshti Zever, this book has been given in Jahez ( Jahez is a wrong practice, but anyway) to women for years even till 60′s.
    It was a famous book and I thought I should read it. I found it fascinating and ahead of its time, and I appreciate its effort in educating the Muslim women of the Indo-Pak.
    But, there is lot of garbage in it too. And I referred to this book to alert you to get out of the beheshi zever era….though as I said, book did have a role to play at the time it was written.

    * Yes, no “Mullah” is needed for nikah and two witnesses are required. But, a third person who does the nikah should be knowledgeable person who can give the nikah khutba and the right advice, as was the sunnah of Rasoolillah (saw).

    ***** ACtually, if you read Beheshti Zevar, Thanvi does say that two people declaring themselves married in front of two people is a valid shaadi!
    See, even he is not creating unnecessary job for a Mullah or Qazi. Obviously, people do lots of things at weddings. There even used to be the tradition that someone will read Sehraa (poetry) at the wedding. Obviously, and here even you will agre ;-) , that it is not required for shaadi.

    ********* And, finally, I will let you off the hook on Camel’s Urine drinking prescribed in hadees / ahadees (Sahih Bukhari). Similarly, most Ahadees are crap. They were written two hundred (200) years after the death of Muhammad and most of them have dubious people in the chain.

    I guess we have bigger problems on this blog. This Zuberi guy(who makes Fitnah Auntie look like Benazir) and Muhammad (the lunatic writing about his dreams), are they real????


  113. Zainub (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 7:01 am

    Neena,

    Scholars aren’t above criticism. But you’re a scientist, you said, if some jimmy two shoes on the street with no knowledge about science was to label your findings and credibility as worthless, would it mean anything? Of course not. I’m sorry, but unless we ourselves make an effort to learn, we’re just not qualified to pass on judgments on others. The thing with us though, is that we want religion to be subservient to what we like and what we want, in this frame of mind, it can be easier to just label specific ulemas useless because they endorse a version of religion which we do not want to follow. Religion can not become what we want it to become, it on the contrary expect us us to be subservient of what it is.

    XYZ,

    You probably disregard hadiths as a source of Islamic knowledge altogether, so not sure how eye opening this will be for you, but just in case:

    “Ayesha (R) reported that Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr (R) came to the Messenger of Allah (S) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: ‘O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands.” (Abu Dawood)

    he Prophet Muhammad (S) stated that in later generations of his ummah there would be “women who would be dressed but naked and on top of their heads (what looks like) camel humps. Curse them for they are truly cursed.” (Muslim)

    See this for more

    One thing I do have to give you credit for. I had made a strong resolve not to reply to any of the comments on this thread again, but you’ve made me break that resolve again.

    If you have a gripe against Hijabs, and an opinion on how they look on women, and a further opinion on which part of the world’s culture they are part of, sure, go ahead, sure have it, but please keep this well circulated tripe of women wearing it being subjected to supposed oppression to your self.

    No one I know who does the hijab do it because they have been forced to do so. We do it by choice, we do it because we want to do it, even those head-to-toe covered women in Afghanistan, I’d reckon even if there was no Taliban ever, they’d still be doing hijab today. And its not just them, in case you have failed to notice. Probably majority of the Muslim women around the world chose to follow what those women did 200 years ago after the revelation of those ayahs of Surah Ahzab. And that’s not just in the Arabian peninsula, but across Africa, America, Europe, South-East Asia, and our own sub-continent as well. And this includes scores of converted Muslims females, who were by your definition used to living and wearing liberated lifestyles and clothing respectively before their conversions, even if we assume all born Muslims are brainwashed idiots and incapable of thinking themselves, then what counts for the actions of these converts? They get brainwashed too, eh?

    We do this because we believe it is liberating for us and because we consider it part of deen to do so. If you want to deny that hijab is part of deen, sure go ahead, we’ll try and show you to an extent, but ultimately you’re entitled to keep your own opinions, and I personally couldn’t be bothered less. Baring a few countries, there aren’t regulations forcing women to wear hijab in most Muslim majority countries (at least not in Pakistan anyway) so by and large people aren’t going to force you to do something you don’t want to do, so you shouldn’t force or label other people with tags because of what they chose to do so too. As Marcy C has said in that article I have linked to, “hijab is not merely a covering dress but more importantly, it is behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public, dress is only one facet of the total being”. For me, hijab is a state of mind, and this state of mind is nothing like oppression, it is much, much more liberating then many of the so-called liberating things I am told to follow these days.


  114. baazi (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 7:44 am

    @Wasiq thogh you have chosen to milign the sanctity of this particular thread, I wont. warna puttar jawab to aisa mojod hai kay marnay tak bhi chain nahi aye gaa lol


  115. Neena (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 9:39 am

    Zainub,

    I think this thread had turned an ugly turn but since you asked me a direct question- Anyone can criticize my findings if it affects them in anyway and believe me they do.

    I’m a strong believer in choice and if someone chooses to wear whatever they wish I’ve no problem with it. Women are praying in Kabba since the time of prophet and by making male and female wear same clothes (during Umra and Hajj) Allah affirms that all human beings are equal in his eyes so who are these scholars to say women can’t go to mosques. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Dr. Hashmi. I need to find out more about this lady. It’s about time we have some female moral leaders.


  116. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 10:42 am

    Salamalikum,

    Zuberi, I’ll get to your comments when I’ve time because you didn’t stop and didn’t heed the advice for showing maslihat. I’m too busy with this XYZ guy. XYZ: I try to be nice but sometimes enough is enough. May Allah curse those who reject hadith and jo hadith ko gali daytain hain. You didn’t let me off the hook. You need to feed your ego, don’t you? If you have such a weak level of emaan, don’t accuse others of it too. In emergency, it’s even allowed to eat kenzeer and drink sharab. So, if the only medicine available or known at that time to cure that disease was camel’s urine, then it was perfectly ok to do that. In fact, you let yourself off the hook by giving gali to hadith. What a munafiq you are!

    Maybe you want to read Thanwi’s behasti zewar again. What you are quoting isn’t correct. Plus, you conviniently forgot to talk about wali. You are making taweel (re-interpretation) of Quran and reviling Ayesah (may Allah be pleased by her) by calling her young in the sense that she wasn’t mature enough to transmit hadith. Open your eyes.

    Now, you have introduced a new definition “arabic-style” hijab. Your “view” has no waqat, ok? Hijab is hijab as long as it is according to shariat. And, if that is done, then there won’t be much difference between “Arabia” hijab and “Hind” hijab. Don’t equate Islamic teaching with Muslim practices. Women convering their heads while wearing tight clothing are doing something wrong but that doesn’t make hijab wrong. Are you intelligent enough to make that distinction? Plus, you were talking about “Arabia” hijab and then you started talking about how women wear hijab in the West. Is your stupidity going to stop somwhere? How is “Arabia” hijab same as some women doing hijab in the West?

    Reading shera is not an Islamic requirement so it doesn’t matter if that tradition is still being done or not. You level of jahalat is such that you can’t differentiate between required Islamic practices and cultural practices.

    Lastly, because Rasoolillah (saw) had the best of ikhlaq and Allah taala Himself attested to his ikhlaq in Quran, I want to write about Islam in best possible manner, but really you don’t deserve it XYZ and I dislike you for the sake of Allah because what you said about hadith. In a hadith, Rasoolillah (saw) said I don’t get angry except for Islam (meaning if someone did something not becoming of a Muslim). So, inshaAllah I dislike for that as well. And, I don’t mind taking this tone. I really directly want to say that XYZ may Allah curse you, but Allah is the most merciful and forgiving so I ask Allah to guide you and forgive you and bring you closer to Quran and increase your love for the Sunnah of Rasoolillah (saw), inshaAllah. Allahu Mustaain. Shoot, XYZ, you’ve shaken me. I never had heard a Muslim giving gali to hadith like this, shoot. May Allah forgive me and all of us. AstaghfurAllah il-azeem.


  117. Neena (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 10:52 am

    I don’t know when this discussion led to Hijab but anyway :).

    XYZ,

    I also beleive that most arab girls when they wear hijab on tight t-shirts and tight pants, it defeats the purpose.

    I hear you on this one, now most Muslim South Asians in the west too adapting to this practice. How else they’ll look different from gori (a big competition) counterparts (although I believe everyone is beautiful in their own way).

    Let me quote from here

    People forget that Hijab is not merely a covering dress but more importantly, it is behavior, manners, speech and appearance in public. Dress is only one facet of the total being. I have seen many hijabis (and I mean MOST hijabis I have encountered) to forget this fact. I don’t mean a slight on any sister, but sometimes it is better for these women to NOT wear the hijab. They are not ready for it, and crave the attention that the hijab denies them. Therefore they seek attention in other ways, more sinful than had they just left their hair uncovered.

    An interesting perspective why Mullhas are obsessed with women clothing, see here.


  118. Hasan Zuberi (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 1:13 pm

    @ Ibrahim:

    Brother, at one side you are giving points against the cursing of these TV-scholars and on the other you keep your hars words against Maulana Thanwi (RUS), who earned the title of Shaikh-ul Hadith & Imam-ul-Asr.

    I am not here to debate you … but to discuss what I have learned from Ulema-e-Karam during my days at the Madarsa.

    I apologise if I offended you or anyone else here … as it was not my intention.

    I am no one to hate any Makatib-e-Fikr nor any sect, my point was and still is that this lady, Dr. Hashmi, follows a particular sect (Ghair-muqalid) and create confusion among the women from Sunni school of thought … it happened in my family … hence it should be known to all who wish to attend.

    Let me rephrase it again here … I consider myself a Muslim, who try to “follow” the learned scholars & Ulema-e-Haq and prefer not to question their authority.

    May Allah guide us all …


  119. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 3:28 pm

    @wasiq, no comments youger boy. You got serious for no reason. I had no intention to offend you. :-). Atleast I was kidding at my end but then…. khair leave it.


  120. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 3:32 pm

    @XYZ, the way you are declaring everything fitnah here including beared, I will not surprised if you declare “Oneness of Allah” as fitnah too in coming post. Good going and keep it up.


  121. XYZ (unregistered) on May 23rd, 2007 @ 11:45 pm

    Neena wrote:

    An interesting perspective why Mullhas are obsessed with women clothing, see here.

    My comment:

    The two URLs quoted in your most recet post are interesting. I am glad that people are discussing the issue at those sites.

    Also, I read the very first URL that you provided on Farhat Auntie. I actually felt bad for her. It must be hard to survive on such a small amount of money in Canada with a husband and few kids. I hope her husband gets a good job to support the family.

    This ISNA has done a few good things but mostly it was founded and as a result dominated by Jamati Islami PK members and brotherhood members from Egypt. With that kind of history, one can’t expect too much from ISNA.
    ACtually, its spin-off ICNA is worse. In a typical Muslim fashion of kharab sae kharaab ter, if ISNA was not bad enough….the real fanatics in ISNA started ICNA.

    I wish you the best in your research and hope you get a Nobel and/or make lots of money commercializing your research.

    And when you are in Bill Gates league, I hope you will put some money towards education of girls in Karachi or any other place you prefer.


  122. XYZ (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 12:07 am

    Adnan wrote:

    the way you are declaring everything fitnah here including beared, I will not surprised if you declare “Oneness of Allah” as fitnah too in coming post.

    My Comment:

    I am not saying that beard on its own is a fitnah.
    My point was that thinking and promoting and enforcing that Beard is a must for Muslim men is a fitnah.
    Similarly, thinking and enforcing Arabic style hijab is a must, is a fitnah too.

    Similarly, promoting Allah Hafiz over Khudahafiz as a govt policy as that happened in Zulmat-ul-Haq’s time, and interrupting people that no, don’t say Khuda hafiz, say allah Hafiz… this is fitnah.

    And these Israr-e-Ramooz and Fitnah Hashmi types are the biggest fitnahs who promote such thoughts.

    I hope Fitnah Auntie will take her own advice and not broadcast her message via tapes, CDs, and websites because it could be heard by naamehram men jin kay dilo’n mae aurat kee aavaaz soun kar nah jaanay kaisay kaisay khyaal angRaaeyaa’n laenay lagai’n.

    And, so, do you think Oneness of Khudaa is a fitnah?


  123. Balma (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 1:16 am

    I (XYZ) previously wrote:

    I hope Fitnah Auntie will take her own advice and not broadcast her message via tapes, CDs, and websites because it could be heard by naamehram men jin kay dilo’n mae aurat kee aavaaz soun kar nah jaanay kaisay kaisay khyaal angRaaeyaa’n laenay lagai’n

    My comment:
    In order to be fair, I believe all these Israr-o-Ramooz type men (i.e. Israr Ahmed’s reincarnations) should also stop propogating their thoughts via tapes, CDs, TV, and internet.
    Inn men kee aavaaz soun kar and surats dekh kar naamehram sisters kay ikhlaaq kharab ho saktay hai’n.

    Note: I will be writing from now on under the alias ‘Balma’. I noticed recently that someone else was using XYZ name on a different thread at KMB. To avoid the confusion, I thought I should change my alias.

    So far on KMB, I have only written on this thread and a couple of times on Elevated Expressway related threads.
    thanks.


  124. SELF (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 2:36 am

    I wonder if we should disallow religious posts here. Does it not amount to preaching ones faith? Would KMB allow say a Hindu to do a post preaching his faith or a Christian saying that Jesus is the last prophet? If not why is KMB only restricted to actively preaching faiths that certain posters belong to? Heck Cy is grind even if he/she makes post on issues of public interest just because he/she has a different set of beliefs…while certain posters are shamelessness and openly promoting their own particular brand of faith not to mention their own particular brand of Mullahs and Mullahnis.

    KMB policy should not be biased towards any particular race, religion, sex and political view.


  125. baazi (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 3:37 am

    An interesting perspective why Mullhas are obsessed with women clothing, see here.

    OK………………

    and what are you people obssesed with?


  126. baazi (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 3:39 am

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  127. wasiq (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 4:27 am

    not only in the persian underground ….i have seen hijab come off both on screen and off….with the same jeans and jacket..with or without the breeze….it can never create the same effect as that of a helmet coming off….and iam not talking about the Briget jones…that was an exaggeration…..

    @Baazi…..shabaash that’s more like it!
    @siddiqi sab….i think you are feeling a little bit of nostalgic because of the earlier post on the similar topic….from the archive reminded by Neena….han na?

    WAKEUP CALL:canada is nearer to me than the pass wali dukan over a dozen flights fly directly to major cities of canada from karachi celebrities,fans,friends,relatives and wellwishers fly in from canada very regularly….they love me in canada….very very much!


  128. Neena (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 8:39 am

    Balma (nice handle),

    And when you are in Bill Gates league, I hope you will put some money towards education of girls in Karachi or any other place you prefer.

    Thanks, for all the kind words but I’m sure I’ll never be in Billy’s league (he is a college dropout ;). Just kidding, I’m not that goal oriented. I’m planning to go into teaching and as you know teachers all around the world kinda underpaid. My husband and I do whatever we can for the kids back home (Karachi) via our families.

    >>>>About Banning voice broadcastlink about the Life of Feamle Student In Punjab University during Zia days. Karachi university environment wasn’t too different from it. [Altaf (ex Jamaati) learned his tricks from there.]


  129. Balma (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 9:58 am

    Neena wrote
    *There are lots of people who are questioning Mullah types, they don’t get as much publicity as they deserve. Here is a link about the Life of Feamle Student In Punjab University during Zia days. Karachi university environment wasn’t too different from it. [Altaf (ex Jamaati) learned his tricks from there.]

    My Comment
    **********

    The site you referred to seems like a Sufi site.
    Reminds me of a book by the title “Nizaami Bansree” I read few years ago. It was originally written by a Hindu converted to Islam from South India (golconda or Bejapur) who moved to Dehli during the times of Muhammad Shah Tughlaq. He writes about the happennings around Nizamuddin Aulia and Ameer Khusro. Gives one an idea about birth of Urdu. But, what is most interesting is the maslaa-Masaael Muslims of that time are busy with…just like the garbage we have to deal with today. Things don’t change. People in Karachi are still wondering about Hijab and Maulvis and mean while hundreds of rulers have changed between Tughlaq and Manmonah Singh in Dilli.

    The comment about Jamat-e-Islami in that article you referred to by that excellent writer – I wish I could write like her – I never had chance to go to a University in Karachi or PK, but did use to hear about Jamatis’ ghundagardi and acid throwing on women not wearing long sleeves qameezes from few friends who were bit older than me and were attending Karachi Univ in late 70s.

    I believe that Maududi contributed to the religion and Urdu by writing translation and tafsir of Quran. But, when it comes to tafseer, it is his opinion. I have read bits and pieces of it. Things get tricky every time one writes his/her opinion. I don’t think he persoally was that bad, as his party turned out to be. I have been reading Ben Franklin’s bio recently, and I guess Franklin was right in thinking that correct amount of religion (any religion) can only help bring goodness in people, from one person to another….but somehow we Karachiites and Pakistanis have to deal with these kaTTar fanatics.

    On the same note, I remember the excitement on hearing about MQM’s victory. Being an ‘education’ nut, I thought MQM could now establish new universities all over Karachi… how innocent of me! How stupid of me :-(
    Instead of education, Karachi’s population doubled. PK’s population got out of control. I still haven’t lost all hope with Altaf. May be he will come on raah-e-raast and make spreading higher education all over Karachi and in fact all over PK his mission. But, may be I am a foolish dreamer. With the power he has, it is no big deal to establish a university in each town of Karachi. How wonderful it will be to have eighteen new universities in Karachi.
    Time to wake up, I guess!


  130. baazi (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 10:16 am

    Neena your style of generalizations is not at par with your claims of a follower of logic.

    I have no idea whether the story of Dr Farhat you are peddling do happily here is true or not. But even IF it is true, what is the her chance in getting a job in a descitmanting country?

    For example in a famous incident in a european country, they sent CV of same person with his his original arabic name and one with same content but with gora name. He got replies only on the english name and his arabic name CV’s were thrown in the dustbin.

    Are you getting the drift of this post yet?


  131. Balma (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 11:27 am

    * Ibrahim
    *********** My comments

    Zuberi, I’ll get to your comments when I’ve time because you didn’t stop and didn’t heed the advice for showing maslihat. I’m too busy with this XYZ guy. XYZ: I try to be nice but sometimes enough is enough. May Allah curse those who reject hadith and jo hadith ko gali daytain hain. You didn’t let me off the hook. You need to feed your ego, don’t you? If you have such a weak level of emaan, don’t accuse others of it too. In emergency, it’s even allowed to eat kenzeer and drink sharab. So, if the only medicine available or known at that time to cure that disease was camel’s urine, then it was perfectly ok to do that. In fact, you let yourself off the hook by giving gali to hadith. What a munafiq you are!

    ******

    By Maslihet, are you asking Zuberi to be doghlaa?
    Or not speak his mind? or not be honest about what he thinks is correct?

    Did I hint that you have weak imaan?
    On the contrary, I believe your iman is bit too strong on some unsubstantiated believes commonly held by some Muslims.

    Are you claiming that if 1400 years ago, the only medicine available was Camel’s urine, then it was OK to have a drink of it….but today it is not OK because we have other medicines?
    You mean t say you do think time is a factor?
    Is the idea that human life is too important, and one can drink even camel’s urine to save it is the lesson to be learned here, or that we have to take literal interpretation of ahaadees or Quran devoid of placing any value to the times and era we live in?

    Because, I am beginning to think that we are on the same page. It seems you would agree that people carrying miswaaks in their pockets are stupid, and the real message from Muhammad is to clean one’s teeth…right? I guess you would agree with me that cleaning teeth with toothbrush using tooth paste if ok? Correct?

    And, when Quran says modesty and tells women to cover their breasts, if some Muhajir and local Yasrab women did crazy stuff, that was their understanding at that time, and people in our era, in our time, in 2007 if we think that it meant that women (and men) should dress to cover their private parts……won’t that be OK?

    If camel urine drinking is not necessary today, why women today have to do what women 1400 years ago did after hearing the aayat on covering of their breasts. And, that is if we have to believe the ahaadess copiled two hundred years after these women’s crazy action. And when you add the fact the first person in this 200 year long chain is Ayesha, who was very very young when she was married to Muhammad….. wasn’t there a chance of miscommunication by her, and by 5 or 6 generations of people in the middle till the story reached Bukhari, Ben-David, and others?

    *Now, you have introduced a new definition “arabic-style” hijab

    ********Ofcourse, my problem is with Arabic style hijab worn by arabs in arabian places, and now by some desi women. I actually don’t have that much repulsion to dupattas.
    Hijab with tight shirts and tight jeans is not uncommon, but that was my secondary comment.

    *Maybe you want to read Thanwi’s behasti zewar again

    ************
    OK, I read it again.
    Please refer to :
    Beheshti Zever by Hakeem-ul-Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi published by Goshaa-e-Adab, Quetta.
    Unfortunatley, in typical sloppy Muslim fashion, the year of publication is not printed. Atleast I give quetta guys credit for printing this historic book….Karachiites have no value for literature or education any more. D-Mart mae jaa kar Godiva khareednay say fursat milay to paRhnae kaa vaqt milae!

    Any way, please refer to, Nikaah kaa bayaan in
    Hissaa Chahaarum (part 4):

    Maslaa Numer 9:
    Agar mard bhee javaan hae, aur aurat bhee javaan hae, toe voh dono apnaa nikah khood kar saktay hai’n. Doe gavaaho’n kay saamnay aik keh dae keh mae nay apnaa nikah tairay saath kiyaa- doosra kahae mae nay qubool kyaa – buss nikah ho gayaa.
    End.

    Please refer to same part, but in section ‘valee kaa byaan’:

    Maslaa number 3:
    Baaligh, yaani javaan aurat khudmukhtaar hae, chaahae nikah karay, chaahay nah karay, aur jiss kay saath jee chaahay karay, koee shakhs iss per zabardasti nahi’n kar saktaa- Agar voh khood apnaa nikah kisee sae karay toe nikah ho jayae gaa. Chaahae valee ko khabar ho yaa nah ho aur vali chaahae khush ho ya nah ho, her tarah nikah durust hae. Haa’n albatah agar apnay mael mae nikah nahee’n kyaa aur apnay say kam zaat vaalay sae nikah kar liyaa aur valee naakhush hae, fatva iss per hae keh nikah durust nah ho gaa……don’t have patience to complete it…

    but, here is my fatvaa:-), if you don’t mind, that thanvi Saheb was wrong about this zaat paat thing, and I guess he was a victim of his background and era he lived in and the region of India he lived in.

    Anyway, the two maslaas above amply show that Thanvi thought that nikah’s khutbah was not necessary, neither was a vali.

    Ofcourse, he does talk about vali, for both men and women, and stresses upon its importance in his discussion on marriage when one or both parties are not baaligh. Here, my fatvaa :-) is that Pakistan govt should put a ban on weddings of girls less than 25 and guys less than 30 in order to control population explosion. It will be bit difficult for a 25 plus girl to keep on generating one kid per year for too long.

    Also, my comment on sehraa was to stress that it is not a necessary part, just like vali etc are not necessary.

    Though, I believe that in today’s fraudy Pakistani era, there has to be formal registration of marriages.

    ****** In your last paragraph, Ibrahim, you got very emotional and barely stopped short of giving me bud duaa. That ain’t nice ;-)

    ******
    You claimed that I shook you.
    Any time. I am glad.
    Get out of Beheshti Zever era, understand that ‘time’ is of value when we interpret things, and try to think of these issues with an open mind. Perhaps, you could do a great service to Karachiites and Muslims in general by interpreting quran accorging to 21st century.
    People did it in past, and in previous hundred years Thanvi did it (in a general sense), Maududi did it, Pickthal did it, Yusuf Ali did it. And, don’t let Fitnah Auntie type people succeed in keeping women in your family stuck to 7th century.

    Khudaa bless you.


  132. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 11:36 am

    i think you are feeling a little bit of nostalgic because of the earlier post on the similar topic….from the archive reminded by Neena….han na?

    Wasiq, wow! I didn’t know you can read me. Congrats, from now on you’re a Peer or Makhdoom like Altaf Hussain or Ameen Fahim!

    Self, stop being a hypocrite dude! At one side you whine about freedom while on other hand you cry why people criticize Cy? I think they are free to criticize him or anyone? Who said no Hindu is allowed here? if you’re so concerned about Hinduism then why don’t you share your experience? When KMB is free to post about concerts and other issues then why not religious? this was the first ever post i think about some religious event and it starts irking you. If you don’t like,just move on!

    When someone tries to talk about relgion, these liberals and secularists start saying “religon is personal matter” but same people don’t hesitate to interfere in others personal matters about religion. What do you call it? someone must redefine hypocrisy.


  133. Balma (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 12:12 pm

    * Zainub
    *********** My comments

    The course is being organised by the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Muslim Development and Research Centre, and is offering both morning as well as evening courses in a wide variety of topics including Quranic Recitation with Tajweed, Translation and Commentary, Quran Grammar and Basic Arabic, Hadeeths and Asool-e-Hadeeths, Masnoon Duaein and others.

    All classes will be held between Mondays and Thursdays at the Umar bin Abdul Aziz Mosque, 18th Lane, Khayban-e-Badban, Phase 7 DHA

    *******
    Zainub, seems like you are the moderator of this thread and if so, I thank you for letting everyone add their two paisas.

    I would like to know who is the sponsor of this Masjid? Is this Masjid legal and legally built? As you know, almost 70 % masjids in Karachi are illegal.

    Who donated for the purchase of land and consturction of this masjid? People in the area or some foreign govt or foreign individual?

    Also, does this masjid have permission to run courses like this and charge for them?

    Does this masjid pay taxes? Is it a non-profit institution?

    And, instead of spending time in tajweed kind of material….desis will be desis and don’t need to learn native Arabic accents, wouldn’t it be more useful for Karachi if you could go to Korangi sector saaRhay saat and fill a bus or van of girls playing guTTaas on streets and teach them how to use computers, or how to read and write… and teach them simple things like washing hands before eating etc. You know Korangi is only a mile or so from this Masjid!

    I mean why spread FArhat Auntie’s message which is so detrimental to your own well being in the backward society of Karachi, rather than educating the kids of Karachi slums….. If you can’t go to Korangi, would you consider just little bit of walking to the slum like commercial areas of DHA and bringing those children to the Masjid and teaching them computer usage. Woudn’t teaching computers to poor kids in the Masjid will be more important than what the plan is.

    Do you know that the “end goal” of people you are promoting is to lock you in your room and not allow you to get any education except if it is to learn their version of religion?

    Do you know that according to some freaks you shouldn’t even have addressed me in the blog and asked my comments. I am obviously naamehram to you!

    This last comment is rhetorical, I don’t actually mean that you should listen to such freaks and stop writing….

    I think your time will be much better spent on teaching kids basic education…..OK, lilbit of religion together with computer won’t be a bad idea either…. but Farhat Hashmi…. come on, please. IF Khudaa has given you a chance, and if you are or your team is action oriented….most of us are not… and I commend you on that… why not go all the way and use Masjid to spread education and literacy among the thousands of poors within walking distance of the Masjid. That will be a great use of Masjid. Just do it!

    Take care!
    And yeah, I believe that most ahaadees are of no use in today’s world, except may be as a study of the historical record, and are not farz on muslims i.e. not obligatory for Muslims to follow them. This is my belief.
    Lakum deenakum valay ya deen. You are entitled to your own.
    Some of us have discussed this already elsewhere in this thread and don’t need to discuss this again. OK?


  134. Zainub (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 2:55 pm

    Balma,

    As far as I am aware the mosque is perfectly legal, and is one of the best mosques I’ve had the pleasure of visiting. I am not aware of any of the other information you asked, but you’re free to call up any of the given numbers in the thread to investigate. I saw the advertisement for their program in Dawn, and that’s why I went to check it out and I liked what I saw and heard which is why I subsequently blogged about it.

    We have some serious fundamental disagreements. The first one is on the role of religion in life. I consider my present life a small part in the greater sphere of religion, you on the other hand, it seems consider religion a small part of your life. You will find the answers to many of your questions in this difference.

    The 2nd serious difference of opinion is on the Sunnah of the Prophet, peace be upon him, which is known and accepted second source of all Islamic jurisprudence, after the first source, which of course is the Qur’an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. And the sunnah is regarded as such not because of what any aalim, mulana, imam, or even the companion of the Prophet , may all be pleased with them, or the Prophet him self, may allah’s peace and blessings be upon him said, but because the Quran it self, Allah swt, Himself has told us this, again and again.

    “And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. ” [Qur'an 59:7]

    Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger’s duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92).

    O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59).

    But no, by your Lord! (O Muhammad) They cannot be believers until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest submission.” (Surah Al-Nisa’ 4:65)

    But for the Grace of Allah to thee and His Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the Grace of Allah unto. (4: 113).

    Say [oh Mohammad]: “If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (3: 31).

    Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not. (45: 18).

    He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (4: 80).

    When they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold, some of them decline (to come). (Surah Al-Nur 24: 48).

    “The answer of the believers, when summoned to God and His Messenger in order that he may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, ‘We hear and we obey’. It is such as these who will attain success.” (Surah Al-Nur 24:51)

    Say: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (Surah Al-Nur 24: 54)

    Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them. (24: 63).

    Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33: 21).

    The verses mentioned here are just some of the verses relating to the authority of the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). Anyone who has read the holy Qur’an knows that Allah (swt) repeats his command to us to follow the Prophet, and obey him, and stay away from anything that he forbids, many times in the holy Qur’an. All these verses point to the fact that we must abide by and follow the Sunnah, and that we cannot obey Allah (swt) without following the Sunnah because Allah (swt) himself in the holy Qur’an asks us and requires us to follow the Sunnah.

    How can your logic question the reliability of ahadeeths because they are in your words 1400 years old and narrated down the years by a lot of people, but be perfectly fine with the word of Quran, which it self is just as old as some hadeeths, and was compiled after being revealed to the Prophet, peace be upon him, by some of the very same people, that also narrated those ahadeeths which you are unwilling to believe. Are you going to start questioning the Quran too few years down the line, for it also 1400 years old?

    True there are hadeeths that have a weak line chain or narrators, and no one is denying that, but on that basis it is completely wrong to disregard all ahadeeths altogether as a source of knowledge and ways of the deen, especially when the Quran emphasizes so much on following the way of the Prophet, peace be upon him. The collection, preservation and investigation of narrations of the Prophet, peace be upon him, is an entire science, which people spend years and years studying. You’re categoric refusal to see this is a bit bewildering, though not completely surprising. Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’di Karib, May Allah be pleased with him, was one of his Companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, he narrated that the Prophet, peace be upon him said, “I have indeed been given the Qur’an and something similar to it besides it. Yet, the time will come when a man leaning on his couch will say, ‘Follow the Qur’an only; what you find in it as halaal, take it as halaal, and what you find in it as haraam, take it as haraam.’ But truly, what the Messenger of God has forbidden is like what God has forbidden.” (Reported by Abu Dawud and Darimi.)

    May Allah forgive us all, and guide us to the straight path.


  135. Neena (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 8:03 pm

    Balma,

    My understanding is these courses require certain fee so it wouldn’t be financially feasable for instructors or for so matter mosque to pursue slum population. Lot of simple mind people don’t understand but now a days religion is a profession. One can be paid for being an eloquent speaker.

    Generally Muslim women are way behind from their counterparts everywhere. If only these Mullahs will deliver what they preach world wouldn’t be so bad for these Muslim ladies.

    Bazzi,

    Dr. Farhat is a married woman, right? According to her believes she shouldn’t need a job. BTW, she don’t want just any job she wants to preach and make money out of it, which is illegal in Canada. Last I check she is doing pretty fine, see her travel profile (btw you won’t find Canada there ;). Do you believe in someone who hide simple fact like this, I know I wouldn’t. Yes, there are bad people everywhere but millions wanting to goto west doesn’t support your argument. Anway, see who helped to build this organization. This is the Islam which is popular once and millions converted to it for its practicality and openmindness.


  136. Balma (unregistered) on May 24th, 2007 @ 11:47 pm

    Neena: Both URLs you mentioned lead to great informaion. Thanks.


  137. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 12:03 am

    Salamalikum,

    By Maslihet, are you asking Zuberi to be doghlaa?
    Or not speak his mind? or not be honest about what he thinks is correct?

    I want Zuberi to not discuss fiqhi masail here because this isn’t the most appropriate blog. But, this comment section should be used to answer people like you.

    Did I hint that you have weak imaan?
    On the contrary, I believe your iman is bit too strong on some unsubstantiated believes commonly held by some Muslims.

    That wasn’t my point—whether you’ve accused someone or not.
    Are you claiming that if 1400 years ago, the only medicine available was Camel’s urine, then it was OK to have a drink of it….but today it is not OK because we have other medicines?
    You mean t say you do think time is a factor?

    Is the idea that human life is too important, and one can drink even camel’s urine to save it is the lesson to be learned here, or that we have to take literal interpretation of ahaadees or Quran devoid of placing any value to the times and era we live in?
    Because, I am beginning to think that we are on the same page. It seems you would agree that people carrying miswaaks in their pockets are stupid, and the real message from Muhammad is to clean one’s teeth…right? I guess you would agree with me that cleaning teeth with toothbrush using tooth paste if ok? Correct?

    Your comments are getting weaker by the day. I’m talking about emergency. Yes, if you drink Camel’s urine even today, it will fix the disease for which it was recommended. I never said it’s not OK to drink. Yes, time is a factor in such matters where there is an alternate that doesn’t contradict the shariat. The lesson to be learned here is that Islam is a practical religion and Allah is the most merciful and in emergency Allah taala has allowed people to eat/drink otherwise haram things but only as much as to resolve the emergency. Only you will learn from this that Hadith and Quran need to be reinterpreted.

    No, sorry to burst your bubble. I am 180 degrees apart in thinking with you. Allhamdulillah, by Allah, I’m carrying a miswaak in my pocket right now, and there is no stupidity involved in it. It’s a small one that completely fits within my palm and its not visible to people, so what’s the problem. People carry and use it because it was one of the most beloved habits of Rasoolillah (saw) and he recommended it to his ummat as is narrated in a hadith in al-Bukhari:

    Ibn Umar narrates that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu waalayhi wasallam) said: “Make a regular practice of the Miswaak, for verily, it is healthy for the mouth and it is a pleasure for the Creator (i.e. Allah is pleased with the Muslim who uses the Miswaak)”. There are many other ahadeeth on this. Also, one of the last things Rasoolillah (saw) did before his death was do miswaak (even though he was very sick but loved it so much) when Abdur Rahman bin Abi Bakr came to see Rasoolillah (saw), who was doing miswaak and Rasoolillah (saw) signaled Ayesha (because he was too weak to speak) to ask for miswaak from ibn Abi Bakr.

    And, I use tooth paste as well. Only jaahil people (people who don’t have the knowledge of Islam) would think that you should never use tooth paste and a brush. If people want to brush up their teeth using miswaak on top of using brush, as I do it, then there is nothing wrong and it is following the sunnat. By the way, why does it bother you if a Muslim carries a miswaak or not. Are they forcibly brushing your teeth using their miswaaks?

    And, when Quran says modesty and tells women to cover their breasts, if some Muhajir and local Yasrab women did crazy stuff, that was their understanding at that time, and people in our era, in our time, in 2007 if we think that it meant that women (and men) should dress to cover their private parts……won’t that be OK?
    If camel urine drinking is not necessary today, why women today have to do what women 1400 years ago did after hearing the aayat on covering of their breasts. And, that is if we have to believe the ahaadess copiled two hundred years after these women’s crazy action. And when you add the fact the first person in this 200 year long chain is Ayesha, who was very very young when she was married to Muhammad….. wasn’t there a chance of miscommunication by her, and by 5 or 6 generations of people in the middle till the story reached Bukhari, Ben-David, and others?

    No, Quran just doesn’t say to cover breasts and other private parts. It asks to cover women’s and men’s what’s known as awrah. And, a woman’s awrah cover her hair and her whole body (meaning cover hair and wear loose clothing). Loose clothing goes for men too. Think about it: Women have thier hair done to make them look more attractive. So, hair please in temptation and it has been proven from ahadeeth that it is to be covered.

    You are a person with a bad tongue in the way you use your language. Saying muhajir and Medina women doing “crazy stuff”. Have some haya?
    Camel drinking isn’t necessary today and wasn’t necessary 1400 years ago. Do I’ve to clarify the concept of necessity and emergency, etc. again? First of all, if we weren’t talking about religion and someone deliberately mis-spoke your name or somebody’s name, you will be all upright and would be saying ‘please show consideration and be civil and use good judgement’. But, here, your upbringing which has taught you to make fun of religious scholars of the history and people in general leads you to wirte Ben-David instead of Abu Daud. If you think this comes of as clever, then your ego is huge. If you think that hurts people, then you are senseless. If you think this riles people up, then you are quite odd.

    And, no this hadith is a saheeh hadith and its narrators are reliable people. Don’t you people (munkar-e-hadith) have better argument then to put doubt on the reliability of hadith? I’ve put forward this argument in other places, and I’ll say it here again: Do you believe in five daily prayers? Do you believe in how prayer is conducted? In Wazu? PLEASE DO ANSWER. Do you believe in azaan? PLEASE DO ANSWER. If you don’t, then I will not respond to your answers anymore because it would be completely, utterly useless because I can’t talk to a ‘Muslim’ about shariat/role of Islam in our lives when he doesn’t even believe in five daily prayers. InshaAllah, you do believe in these things. Now, show me where in Quran it says to do these things? Meaning, this all comes from authentic ahadeeth. And, Allah taala has promised to protect His religion (Islam) forever. So, don’t you think He can find people among his slaves who can reliabily and correctly transmit ahadeeth and catch hadeeth that are fabricated by people? If one believes in Allah’s power, there should be no argument about this.

    Ofcourse, my problem is with Arabic style hijab worn by arabs in arabian places, and now by some desi women. I actually don’t have that much repulsion to dupattas. Hijab with tight shirts and tight jeans is not uncommon, but that was my secondary comment.

    Of course, you will say this because I confronted you with changing your argument from just hijab earlier to now using the term “arabic-hijab”. Maybe in your eyes and around you, only “now” some desi women have been wearing this type of hijab. If you haven’t seen it before, don’t think it didn’t happen before. Read my comment above again: If women wore hijab according to shariat there would be next to no difference in the way “arabi” hijab is worn and “desi” hijab is worn. You are stuck in your cultural issues. There is no waqat of you saying you have no replusion to dupattas. If dupattas are according to shariat, then great. If not, then change your hijab. The way I assume you see women wearing “desi” hijab by placing dupattas on only part of their head is useless because it’s not according to shariat. Covering the head properly is not equal to half-covering the head!

    OK, I read it again.
    Please refer to :
    Beheshti Zever by Hakeem-ul-Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi published by Goshaa-e-Adab, Quetta. Unfortunatley, in typical sloppy Muslim fashion, the year of publication is not printed. Atleast I give quetta guys credit for printing this historic book….Karachiites have no value for literature or education any more. D-Mart mae jaa kar Godiva khareednay say fursat milay to paRhnae kaa vaqt milae!
    Any way, please refer to, Nikaah kaa bayaan in Hissaa Chahaarum (part 4):
    Maslaa Numer 9:
    Agar mard bhee javaan hae, aur aurat bhee javaan hae, toe voh dono apnaa nikah khood kar saktay hai’n. Doe gavaaho’n kay saamnay aik keh dae keh mae nay apnaa nikah tairay saath kiyaa- doosra kahae mae nay qubool kyaa – buss nikah ho gayaa.
    End.

    Please refer to same part, but in section ‘valee kaa byaan’:
    Maslaa number 3:
    Baaligh, yaani javaan aurat khudmukhtaar hae, chaahae nikah karay, chaahay nah karay, aur jiss kay saath jee chaahay karay, koee shakhs iss per zabardasti nahi’n kar saktaa- Agar voh khood apnaa nikah kisee sae karay toe nikah ho jayae gaa. Chaahae valee ko khabar ho yaa nah ho aur vali chaahae khush ho ya nah ho, her tarah nikah durust hae. Haa’n albatah agar apnay mael mae nikah nahee’n kyaa aur apnay say kam zaat vaalay sae nikah kar liyaa aur valee naakhush hae, fatva iss per hae keh nikah durust nah ho gaa……don’t have patience to complete it…
    but, here is my fatvaa:-), if you don’t mind, that thanvi Saheb was wrong about this zaat paat thing, and I guess he was a victim of his background and era he lived in and the region of India he lived in.
    Anyway, the two maslaas above amply show that Thanvi thought that nikah’s khutbah was not necessary, neither was a vali.

    At least, we agree with something: Karachi or Pakistan, people don’t read much, especially about their religion.

    InshaAllah, I want to be a person who will admit his mistakes when they occur. You are right. Wali is not a requirement for balagh people in hanafi fiqh, by hanafi opinion. However, every rule in Islam must be referred back to Quran and Sunnah. And, now we are getting into fiqhi talk here. But, according to other schools of thoughts, wali (or qazi) is required for a woman. And, this opinion is closest to the Sunnah.

    Rasoolillah (saw) said, as reported by Tabaraani in a saheeh hadith that: “There is no marriage contract except with a wali and two witnesses.”
    Earlier hanafi jurists must not have the evidence available to them. So, they reached a wrong verdict. But, later hanafi scholars know the evidence but stick to the older verdict because they believe in Taqleed (what Zuberi has been talking about…Zuberi inshaAllah I will respond soon to you). And, of course, we should remember the hadith that if a capable, learned, honest faqih (jurist) or scholar does his best research and reaches at the right verdict, then he will receive two deeds. If he reaches the wrong verdict despite doing his best and having the intention of not changing or reinterpreting the religion then he will get one deed.

    Also, Balmi, people like you pick and choose. If you were to believe in everything in behasti zawar, then your argument might have some weight. But, as it’s you people pick and choose. So, whatever fits your mentality you don’t care if it was Thanwi saheb or 1400 years ago. But, ah, when rulings aren’t to your liking, subhanAllah, you would make all types of argument to try to avoid it. Think and apnay gribaan khool kay dakheeya.

    Ofcourse, he does talk about vali, for both men and women, and stresses upon its importance in his discussion on marriage when one or both parties are not baaligh. Here, my fatvaa :-) is that Pakistan govt should put a ban on weddings of girls less than 25 and guys less than 30 in order to control population explosion. It will be bit difficult for a 25 plus girl to keep on generating one kid per year for too long.

    See, now you don’t like it because it doesn’t fit your thinking. Go, leave in communist Cuba if you like such marriage age and number of children restriction. You aren’t capable of writing a coharent argument let alone give your fatwa.

    Also, my comment on sehraa was to stress that it is not a necessary part, just like vali etc are not necessary.

    No, you used it to show, due to lack of knowledge and ignorance, that since sehraa is not read now, then other things required in Islam cannot be done as well. May I refer you back to your comments if you don’t agree.

    In your last paragraph, Ibrahim, you got very emotional and barely stopped short of giving me bud duaa. That ain’t nice ;-)

    I wasn’t that emotional, rahter, I was upset but Allahmdulillah I stayed away from making such a duaa. Rather, Allah taala made me say nice words for you, no doubt. Making such a duaa “ain’t nice” but calling hadith “crap” is perfectly ok for you? Why did it bother you about me making a ‘bad duaa’ if you thought your comments were pecfectly correct.

    You claimed that I shook you.
    Any time. I am glad.
    Get out of Beheshti Zever era, understand that ‘time’ is of value when we interpret things, and try to think of these issues with an open mind. Perhaps, you could do a great service to Karachiites and Muslims in general by interpreting quran accorging to 21st century.
    People did it in past, and in previous hundred years Thanvi did it (in a general sense), Maududi did it, Pickthal did it, Yusuf Ali did it. And, don’t let Fitnah Auntie type people succeed in keeping women in your family stuck to 7th century.

    You love to quote Behasti zawar and then ask people to get out of “behasti zever” era. Nice going. Time is an issue when new cases come up that need verdicts and as long as those verdicts are based on Quran and Sunnah (not thier new reinterpratations), then I of course have no problem with it. Karachiites and Muslims can do themselves a favor by going back to Quran and Sunnah and learning their deen. Wow, you must be gasping for air by now—forced to use Thanwi (even “in general sense”) as an example of reinterpretation of Islam. This is almost laughable. Go pick up Moudoudi’s book called “Purdah” and then come and tell me how he has “reinterpreted” Quran and Sunnah about purdah. Unfortunately, and I’m not saying this in sarcasm, your superficial knowledge is a barrier for you to open up your mind. Hey, I’ve an open mind: That’s why I’m not a muqlid (Zuberi) and am not biased about my opinion. At the expense of sounding arrogant and maghroor and Allah knows I’m not trying to be, if tomorrow I find out one my opinions is against Quran and Sunnah, I will change it, inshaAllah. Look into a mirror and think, can you say the same for yourself. May Allah guide us all.


  138. wasiq (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 3:43 am

    Ahad-e-javani row row kaata, peery main leen ankain mond
    Yani raat bohat thay jaagay, subh hooye araam kya
    ……
    Naahuq, hum majbrooron per ye teh-mat hay mukhtari key
    Chaahtay hain so aap karay hain hum koe ebs badnam kya
    (Mir Taqi Mir)


  139. Balma (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 4:55 am

    * Zainub
    ********** My Comments

    *I saw the advertisement for their program in Dawn, and that’s why I went to check it out and I liked what I saw and heard which is why I subsequently blogged about it.

    ******* In that case not all is lost. You are not part of their gang yet. Congratulations. And, thanks for posting their ad on the blog. I will be curious to find out their source of income, motivation, and goals of the people involved.

    *We have some serious fundamental disagreements.

    ****** exactly

    *The first one is on the role of religion in life. I consider my present life a small part in the greater sphere of religion, you on the other hand, it seems consider religion a small part of your life. You will find the answers to many of your questions in this difference.

    ******** Yes, I believe too much of religion is not good for an individual, for person’s family, and for the society in general. Esp, when religion takes over or mixes too much with politics.

    *The 2nd serious difference of opinion is on the Sunnah of the Prophet, peace be upon him, which is known and accepted second source of all Islamic jurisprudence, after the first source, which of course is the Qur’an.

    ***** Yes, this is a source of difference and not everyone agrees with the depth of your statement.

    * Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them.

    …..
    * be upon him said, but because the Quran it self, Allah swt, Himself has told us this, again and again.

    **********
    So in your opinion, what is the difference between Farz and Sunanat (Sunnah if it pleases you!)?

    * Your quote of many Aayaats.

    * The verses mentioned here are just some of the verses relating to the authority of the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

    ***********
    I guess the question is when the vahee begun and ended and when some thing is Muhammad’s own thoughts and sayings or what people saw him doing.
    If there is a difference between these, then we have two things Quran and Hadees. If there is no difference, then every thing is vahee(s). and, then every thing should have been included in Quran. Obviously, that is not the case. Not every thing Muhammad said was included in Quran.

    Furthermore, many of the aayats you guoted from Quran, have back ground and context. There is what we call in Urdu ‘shaan-e-nazool’.
    Not every thing in Quran is to be taken literally for ever. For example, if a comment was made in Quran about being friendly or not friendly with some tribe because of war like situation then, that does not mean we can apply that thought blindly to all the people who follow the religion of that tribe today. And, so on.

    Also, if people in Karachi think that Quran says (as some have interpreted it to be) to men that it is ok to beat up your wife….can we apply that today? Would it be ok if your husband now or your husband of future beats you up because a little bit of your hair slipped out of your head cover, the hijab (oh Khudaa! how much I hate that this word’s romantic Urdu meaning has been ruined) or will it be ok to beat you up because you want to work or have a shop or clinic but the guy thinks it is not allowed in Islam???

    *How can your logic question the reliability of ahadeeths because they are in your words 1400 years old and narrated down the years by a lot of people, but be perfectly fine with the word of Quran, which it self is just as old as some hadeeths, and was compiled after being revealed to the Prophet, peace be upon him, by some of the very same people, that also narrated those ahadeeths which you are unwilling to believe. Are you going to start questioning the Quran too few years down the line, for it also 1400 years old?

    **** ACtually, I agree that Quran compiled during the reign of Usman is the Quran that exists today…except that for non-arabs, accents were added….that is zer/zabar/pesh etc.

    On the other hand, the Muslims of Usman’s era actually went through a detailed process to cllect Quran. I do know that a box of old copies of Quran, bits and pieces, from that time or pre-Usman time were discovered in a masjid in Yemen in 60′s or 70′s. I don’t know if anything was done about it or in a typical lazy ass Muslim fashion all things were stored again for another 1300 years. But, again, I do believe that the Quran we have today is the same one as compiled during Usman’s time. ACtually, usman’s copy is still at Top Caapi Palace Museum.

    Ahadees, were compiled in present form approximately around 200 years after Muhammad’s death. the six books that people refer to were compiled generations after Muhammad and his companions were gone.
    And there are hadeeses that conflict each other. For example, on Jesus death.

    *True there are hadeeths that have a weak line chain or narrators, and no one is denying that, but on that basis it is completely wrong to disregard all ahadeeths altogether as a source of knowledge and ways of the deen, especially

    ***** Actually, what is amazing is that if you mention any hadees that actually makes sense, for example, Go to cheen to seek knowledge, someone will say oh, it is zaeef. Others will say, oh it means go to China only for deeni taaleem. And you wonder, if China was a center of Muslim philosophy during Muhammad’s time, or perhaps it meant that go where ever there is science, where ever there is maths, or whereever you can learn about prinicples of Physics.

    * The collection, preservation and investigation of narrations of the Prophet, peace be upon him, is an entire science, which people spend years and years studying.

    ******** I wish if Muslims had spent half as much time on physcial science and maths, we wouldn’t be the worst off people on the face of this earth today! I am not saying that there were no Muslim scientists, but you can’t list more than hundred in last 1400 years. And among desi Muslims, there were almost none. Perhaps, the people who built Taj Mahal or Mirza Hadi Rusva (who was an experimentalist scientist) and wrote Umrao Jan Ada, the first Urdu novel in 1860s. But other than that, I will really like to know the names of Muslim Indian scientists till the beginning of 20th century…and no, al-beiruni was not Indian.

    *You’re categoric refusal to see this is a bit bewildering, though not completely surprising.

    ***** Don’t be bewildered. I am just pissed at my fellow umatees, esp the desis, for being so backward in sceince and technologies and just producing like rabits. Shame on all of us.

    *Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’di Karib, May Allah be pleased

    ****** You do have a zakheeraa of ahadees to cut and paste from. I am impressed.

    *May Allah forgive us all, and guide us to the straight path.
    ******* Mainu bhee apnay khuda say yehee duaa mangdaa see :-) [sorry, my panjabi is horrible]

    Also, as I said it is good that you are not totally in the shikanjaas of this gang, but I believe, your slide in the backward direction on slippery slope has begun. Stop for a minute and look in the rear view mirror: there is a woman in Niqab smiling (I am just guessing, I can’t even see Farhat Auntie’s eyes) and several guys with beards but no moonch and constantly chewing on their miswaks. Beware of them.

    Regards.


  140. Balma (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 5:46 am

    * Ibrahim
    *********** My comments

    *I’m talking about emergency. Yes, if you drink Camel’s urine even today, it will fix the disease for which it was recommended. I never said it’s not OK to drink.

    ..
    * I’m carrying a miswaak in my pocket right now

    ..
    *If people want to brush up their teeth using miswaak on top of using brush, as I do it, then there is nothing wrong and it is following the sunnat. By the way, why does it bother you if a Muslim carries a miswaak or not. Are they forcibly brushing your teeth using their miswaaks?

    ********** as far as I remember the Hadees, there is no mention of emregency in that Hadees. A guy shows up complaining about something, and according to the Hadees Muhammad tells him to go drink camel’s urine.
    If you think that Miswak is fine, emergency or no emergency, then I would say that camel’s urine is fine too if one has that disease. There is no mention of any emergency….I will say that like you do use tootpaate in addition to Miswak, in the hypothetical situation of need to drink urine, one could also use some other medicine.
    IF this hadees is correct, then it is possible that people in Arabia knew something about it but of course, dumb ass Muslims never did any research on that. Abhi bee vaqt hae, Ibrahim Mia’n, aik botal uThaao and Clifton jaa kar bhar lo and take it to Pfizer lab or Karachi University and do some pharmacological analysis of camel’s urine. In fact, think of it as your mazhabi fareezah. If you are not in KHI, go to some zoo or something like that. Sounds like a good science project.

    Also, in your opinion, is Miswak toothpaste ok, or one has to use actual miswak stick to get the savaab?

    IT bothers me, because of the desire of people to sticking to the rituals and not seeing the message. i.e. I believe cleaning teeth is important, and miswak is no extra savaab. It is the mentality, I have problem with.

    *Think about it: Women have thier hair done to make them look more attractive. So, hair please in temptation and it has been proven from ahadeeth that it is to be covered.

    ******I don’t know why some men are fixated only with hair. Many think women’s hair are cute, I agree.
    Many wrote poetry about their eyes. So, should they be covered by jaali dar mask or dark glasses?

    Ever heard of makhrooti fingers…. men have been infatuated with their fingures too…so should they be wearing gloves in KHI’s 50 degree temperature? Remember the dialogue ‘aap kay payoo’n bohut khoobsoorat hai’n’?
    Should they always be wearring shoes when naa mehram are around. What about their necks? Don’t you find that attractive? Ever heard of suraahi daar neck? Should they always be wearing turtle necks so men don’t look at it or worse a burqua all the time when naa mehram are around. I better stop above the neck and below the takhnaas!
    Are you blushing and nervously chewing on your miswaak, Ibrahim?

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to be funny, but you get the point. You can’t imprison Muslim women because one part or another of their body might attract some men or women (hey, that happens too).

    *Do you believe in five daily prayers? Do you believe in how prayer is conducted? In Wazu? PLEASE DO ANSWER. Do you believe in azaan? PLEASE DO ANSWER.

    **** I agree prayers are mentioned in Quran. Five times is a person’s choice. Vazu, I don’t think is necessary when people take one or more shower a day…though I agree in Karachi’s heat, you may want to clean your feet and hands before going into masjid. I agree azan or some way had to exist for people to be invited to Masjid.
    Though, I think since there are too many masjids in Karachi, it is a bad practice for all muezzins to azaan for every prayer. IT is common to hear 6 or seven azans now. In my childhood, you heard one or may be two for each namaaz. Now there are more illegal masjids than before, people are producing like rabbits so more legal and illgal masjids are built. I believe loud speaker should not be allowed for azans, esp when just a genreation or two ago most of these so called scholars thought that loud speakers mae say shaitaan boltaa hae. Yes, that was the pathetic condition of our people.

    **** Also, I think Beheshtee (Jannat Kaa) Zever is an important historic book. I don’t believe in every thing the guy wrote. Of course, I will pick and choose. For example, one of the two maslaaas I guoted, he talks about zaat paat issue. I didn’t complete the full maslaa because I got tired, and I didn’t want to start another controversy, He was saying that Syed are better than Pathans and other garbage like that. Is a Syed or shaikh who is a thief a better person than pathan Ph.D. in islamic history….anyway, that is a whole different topic.
    Itnay Syeds hai’n keh khood Muhammad bhee hairaan peraishan ho jaayae’n:-) Mathemtically impossible number. Actually, some guy did a thesis on this topic in Australia. Some muslim guy, I guess. I am not sure, I remember reading about the thesis about 15 years ago.

    ****** yes, I have read Maududi’s purdah long time ago. It wasn’t a thick book, or may be I read its conedensed version. I don’t agree with him. I respect him. But, I don’t agree with him most of the time.

    Got to go.

    Khudahafiz


  141. Ibrahim (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 8:26 am

    Salamalikum,

    Your last post/comments have confirmed for me that you think too highly of yourself and think every ruling of Islam needs to fit your logic before you practice it. May Allah guide you. Don’t teach us whether you “agree” with a ruling or you don’t “agree” with it. You try to write your comments so logically (one azan is enough because…, no wazu needed because…) that I can’t help but smile because you come off so odd. I told you before that you need to gain some knowledge before arguing. Didn’t I? Now, inshaAllah, read my answers below. And, inshaAllah, these should be my last comments. You have started babbling now and your writings have become quite immature and bechkana. If you see the sun, and still want to believe that sun doesn’t exist, then your prerogative. I can’t compete with your immaturity level.

    In fact, really, I can’t argue with a person who has so little knowledge and picks and chooses from Islam. I say look Quran says this, hadith says this when you want to only choose things that fit you. What else am I going to say? It’s one thing to not do things or believe but to make fun of others and of Islamic symbols is even worse. Zainub is using authentic sites to provide you English translation of ahadeeth with actual references for many, and she’s properly using them. Instead of making fun of her pasting hadeeth for our benefit, why don’t you follow her example and read up on some ahadeeth yourself. It takes knowledge, lagan/dedication to what she’s doing. How many references do you come up with for your arguments? None, and this is because there isn’t much out there to support insanity. Come off your high horse, akh. AstaghfurAllah!

    as far as I remember the Hadees, there is no mention of emregency in that Hadees. A guy shows up complaining about something, and according to the Hadees Muhammad tells him to go drink camel’s urine.
    If you think that Miswak is fine, emergency or no emergency, then I would say that camel’s urine is fine too if one has that disease. There is no mention of any emergency….I will say that like you do use tootpaate in addition to Miswak, in the hypothetical situation of need to drink urine, one could also use some other medicine.
    IF this hadees is correct, then it is possible that people in Arabia knew something about it but of course, dumb ass Muslims never did any research on that. Abhi bee vaqt hae, Ibrahim Mia’n, aik botal uThaao and Clifton jaa kar bhar lo and take it to Pfizer lab or Karachi University and do some pharmacological analysis of camel’s urine. In fact, think of it as your mazhabi fareezah. If you are not in KHI, go to some zoo or something like that. Sounds like a good science project.

    It’s emergency if the only known cure for the disease was to drink the urine. There were no alternatives and this was known. Do you even take time to read what I’ve written or just love to make arguments. I talked about shari alternatives as well. Also, I did say that it was OK to drink camel’s urine for the disease. Didn’t you read. Then, why did you have to “argue” that if miswaak is ok, then drinking camel’s urine is ok, too.

    Didn’t I say you didn’t have knowledge and app apnay hi paon par khulhari marnay par tulay huway hain. Keep digging a whole for yourself. If you had even googled it instead of in haste babbling, you would have known that it has been proven that camel’s urine and milk has benefits. It’s from Allah that I had this knowledge but didn’t share because I wanted to first hammer the point that knowing authentic hadeeth in correct context is good enough for a Muslim. But, since you have brought up scientific research about camel’s urine and mocked Muslims on top of it, here is the research (didn’t I tell you you know little, huh?):

    * In Zaad al-Maad of ibn Qayyim and you can get a copy of Zaad al-Maad from Nafees Academy (since you gave me the publisher for Behasti Zawar!!) it says: Ibn Sina (Avicenna) says: The most beneficial of urine is the urine of Bedouin camels which are called najeeb.

    * In the Emirati newspaper al-Ittihaad (issue no. 11172, Sunday 6 Muharram 1427 AH/5 February 2006) it says: One of the most important things for which camels are raised is their milk, which is efficacious in treating many illnesses, including hepatitis, and the digestive system in general, various types of cancer and other diseases.

    In an article by Dr Ahlaam al-’Awadi, which was published in al-Da’wah magazine, issue no. 1938, 25 Safar 1425 AH/15 April 2004 CE, about the diseases which can be treated with camel’s milk, as proven by experience, it says that there are many benefits in camel’s milk. There follows some of what was said in the article by Dr. Ahlaam:

    Camel’s urine is efficacious in the treatment of skin diseases such as ringworm, tinea and abscesses, sores that may appear on the body and hair, and dry and wet ulcers. Camel’s urine brings the secondary benefits of making the hair lustrous and thick, and removing dandruff from the scalp. Camel’s milk is also beneficial in treating hepatitis, even if it has reached an advanced stage where medicine is unable to treat it.

    * Prof. Dr. ‘Abd al-Fattaah Mahmoud Idrees says: With regard to the benefits of camel’s urine in treating disease, Ibn Seena said in his Qanoon: The most beneficial of urine is the urine of the Bedouin camels known as najeeb. Camel’s urine is beneficial in treating al-hazaaz, and it was said that al-hazzaz is a pain in the heart caused by anger and so on. Camel’s urine, especially the urine of a young she-camel – is used as a cleansing substance to wash wounds and sores, to make the hair grow, to strengthen and thicken it and to prevent it falling out, and it is used to treat diseases of the scalp and dandruff.

    Balmi, nervous by now? Finding out your lack of knowledge. Wait, there is more and inshaAllah it will put you in your place. Meanwhile, I’m enjoying my miswaak.

    * In a Master’s thesis by an engineer in applied chemistry, Muhammad Awhaaj Muhammad, that was submitted to the faculty of applied chemistry in the al-Jazeerah university in Sudan, and approved by the Dean of science and postgraduate studies in the university in November 1998 CE, entitled A Study of the Chemical Composition and Some Medical Uses of the Urine of Arabian Camels, Muhammad Awhaaj says:

    Laboratory tests indicate that camel’s urine contains high levels of potassium, albuminous proteins, and small amounts of uric acid, sodium and creatine.

    In this study, he explained that what prompted him to study the medicinal properties of camel’s urine was what he had seen of some tribesmen drinking this urine whenever they suffered digestion problems. He sought the help of some doctors in studying camel’s urine. They brought a number of patients and prescribed this urine for them, for a period of two months. Their bodies recovered from what they had been suffering from, which proves the efficacy of camel’s urine in treating some diseases of the digestive system.

    Note this research is from Muslims. How are you feeling by now? There is more and what I wrote above can be read at: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=83423&ln=eng

    There is more evidence of your lack of knowledge, which is coming up shortly, inshaAllah.

    Also, in your opinion, is Miswak toothpaste ok, or one has to use actual miswak stick to get the savaab?

    What’s known in sunnat is to use a miswaak (stick). Now, if you brush with miswaak toothpaste with the intention of seeking pleasure of Allah, then Allah can give sawaab if He wants. But, more hasanaat is in doing miswaak stick if when available because this is what Rasoolillah (saw) did. And, if miswaak was purely for once/twice-a-day cleaning like toothbrush then why would Rasoolillah (saw) do it all the time, going to bed, before namaaz, etc. The point was Rasoolillah (saw) was the most cleanist and he kept doing it because he felt some benefits for it, as Allah had made it. So, if we do it today and carry it around, then it’s good as well. Islam is not bound by your logic, get it? Or do I’ve to explain logically?

    IT bothers me, because of the desire of people to sticking to the rituals and not seeing the message. i.e. I believe cleaning teeth is important, and miswak is no extra savaab. It is the mentality, I have problem with.

    This really confirms what I said earlier. You have a general dislike for anything-Islam that doesn’t fit your taste. Why should it bother you? Keeya loog app ko miswaak kar kay chira rahay hain? I’ll ask again, is someone forcibly cleaning your teeth using his miswaak that it bothers you so much. Miswaak kartay loogon say khaar na khain…first, examine your mentality please and then worry about others because you really need to learn and examine yourself.

    I don’t know why some men are fixated only with hair. Many think women’s hair are cute, I agree. Many wrote poetry about their eyes. So, should they be covered by jaali dar mask or dark glasses?

    As you agreed, the point is hair is part of beauty and thus is to be covered. Why eyes aren’t needed to be covered is because it really hampers the sight (however for strong women like Afghani it doesn’t stop them from going around) while covering head, wearing abaya/burqa, normal veil doesn’t hamper the sight or walking. By your mentality, it hampers something for women but it doesn’t.

    Ever heard of makhrooti fingers…. men have been infatuated with their fingures too…so should they be wearing gloves in KHI’s 50 degree temperature? Remember the dialogue ‘aap kay payoo’n bohut khoobsoorat hai’n’?
    Should they always be wearring shoes when naa mehram are around. What about their necks? Don’t you find that attractive? Ever heard of suraahi daar neck? Should they always be wearing turtle necks so men don’t look at it or worse a burqua all the time when naa mehram are around. I better stop above the neck and below the takhnaas!

    First of all, there is ikhtilaf about niqab and gloves because there is daleel for both. I, as mentioned above, believe the opinion that it is not obligatory except in situation of viable fitna because I’ve seen stronger daleel on that. Allah knows best on this. So, your argument about covering fingers doesn’t hold water with me. Try to get on top of someone else who doesn’t have knowledge. May Allah forgive me and increase my knowledge, inshaAllah.

    Didn’t I tell you that you lack knowledge. Right hijab according to shariat is to cover the feet as well. Below is part of a saheeh hadith in Sunan Nissai:

    Umm Salamah said: “O Messenger of Allah, what should women do with their hems?” He said, “Let them go down a handspan.” She asked, “What if their feet show?” He said, “Let them lengthen it by a cubit, but no more.” There is more if you want.

    Afsoos janab, kay app maloomat na honay kay bawajood bayhis main pargay hain. Would you think it’s correct for a layman to discuss scientific issues. Then, why do we argue about Islam when we don’t spend time learning about it. Instead, we try to fit it to our own temptations.

    I don’t know what kind of screwed up hijab you’ve seen women wearing (I’ve already answered about those women in the West you just cover the head while not wearing loose clothing or may be showing their necks), but proper hijab covers the whole upper body in loose clothing. I mean I’m really truly surprised that you want to argue about things you aren’t even clear about.

    You can’t imprison Muslim women because one part or another of their body might attract some men or women (hey, that happens too).

    Hopefully, if you are even a little wise, my above comments should put you in your place. It might be imprisonment for you, but not for others. Read sister Zainub’s comments to see another and correct perspective.

    I agree prayers are mentioned in Quran. Five times is a person’s choice. Vazu, I don’t think is necessary when people take one or more shower a day…though I agree in Karachi’s heat, you may want to clean your feet and hands before going into masjid. I agree azan or some way had to exist for people to be invited to Masjid.
    Though, I think since there are too many masjids in Karachi, it is a bad practice for all muezzins to azaan for every prayer. IT is common to hear 6 or seven azans now. In my childhood, you heard one or may be two for each namaaz. Now there are more illegal masjids than before, people are producing like rabbits so more legal and illgal masjids are built. I believe loud speaker should not be allowed for azans, esp when just a genreation or two ago most of these so called scholars thought that loud speakers mae say shaitaan boltaa hae. Yes, that was the pathetic condition of our people.

    Here is where your babbling really picks up. Do you agree five daily prayers are mentioned in Quran or do you agree five daily prayers are NOT mentioned in Quran? If you agree, then you really need some rest or re-read what I’ve written. Janab, toura sa araam karlain, lagta hay thak gain hain app.

    Do you even read what you write. Wazu is not to clean the face and feet only. Noose is there, arms are there, mouth is there. You stand in front of Allah during namaz in best possible manner—clean and appropriately clothed. And, our prophet has shown that the level of such cleaniness required is achieved by performing wazu or ghusul when required (but least is ghusul). Also, your lack of knowledge is again evident. If you do a wazu, let’s say in the morning for fajr, and if you don’t do anything that breaks a wazu, then you don’t have to repeat it if you want. So, your argument about showering once is plenty doesn’t hold water when a person can do wazu only once as well. So, why do away from wazu when wazu can be (and should be) done during shower/ghusul.

    People must have noticed a pattern by now in your comments. When you are pressing for arguments that make sense you go off on a tangent (although you have proven that you have no trouble making senseless comments). Number of masajid is not an issue here. Another pattern is that you glosses over many of my comments because I assume the going gets tough, huh?

    Also, I think Beheshtee (Jannat Kaa) Zever is an important historic book. I don’t believe in every thing the guy wrote. Of course, I will pick and choose. For example, one of the two maslaaas I guoted, he talks about zaat paat issue. I didn’t complete the full maslaa because I got tired, and I didn’t want to start another controversy, He was saying that Syed are better than Pathans and other garbage like that. Is a Syed or shaikh who is a thief a better person than pathan Ph.D. in islamic history….anyway, that is a whole different topic.
    Itnay Syeds hai’n keh khood Muhammad bhee hairaan peraishan ho jaayae’n:-) Mathemtically impossible number. Actually, some guy did a thesis on this topic in Australia. Some muslim guy, I guess. I am not sure, I remember reading about the thesis about 15 years ago.

    Of course, you don’t believe in everything in it. That would prove you wrong in so many places. You have demonstrated over the course of this discussion that you pick and choose things that have been proven in shariat. This is the picking and choosing I’m talking about. Syed being better is not proven from shariat. This is Thanwi saheb’s opinion. So, that doesn’t say much if you don’t agree with it.

    yes, I have read Maududi’s purdah long time ago. It wasn’t a thick book, or may be I read its conedensed version. I don’t agree with him. I respect him. But, I don’t agree with him most of the time.

    Really? You must haven’t or your comprehension is quite weak. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be using him as an example of your mentality in the earlier comment. Of course, you don’t agree with him. Please take a note: you don’t agree with Thanwi, you don’t agree with Moudoudi, you don’t agree with many ahadeeth, you don’t agree with “old” Quran’s true interpretations, etc, etc. See a pattern. Take a wild guess where the problem might be at.

    Lastly, I’ve already have said that I won’t answer your comments again because your comments are getting bechkana really quickly and frankly I’m tired of arguing in general and particularly with a person with little knowledge.

    I won’t be the one, inshaAllah, going for the last word here. So, feel free Balmi to leave “your ignorant mark” on this post. I thought about taking out all the sarcasm and personal jabs here and Allahmdulillah I usually refrain from doing so, but Balmi app ka moun bahaut kharab hay and you deserve in kind. You can’t even find enough courage to show some respect for our prophet when writing his name just to prove some point. How sad. This is from the etiquette but magar hosakta hay tameez app ko choo kay bhi na guzree ho. May Allah forgive me and increase my knowledge and forgive you and increase your knowledge in Islam and guide us all, inshaAllah.

    Answering Balmi/former XYZ here was most probably useless (Allah knows best). But, it will serve a purpose that others of his kind who might read it will not, inshaAllah, get the chance of saying ‘Look, at XYZ/Balmi’s arguments. Iss nay ajj kal kay longoon ka jo Islam Islam kartay hain moun band kardeeya!’. Others have responded to him very well and more effectively since I’ve taking jabs on him, but I have put in my two cents.


  142. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 1:40 pm

    dear zainab and Ibrahim,

    I hope you guys would be aware of cult called “hadith rejectors” or Munkeer-e-hadith? it’s useless or wastage to get into argument about hadeeth authencity with them as these people don’t offer salat because they claim that it’s not in Quran.

    it’s really shameful that someone posted about a religious event and several people started suffering. I would encourage zainab or anyone to post more and more and more about religious events in city because there are several like me who are not aware of religious gatherings in city.


  143. khawar (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 4:51 pm

    Assalamu alaikum,

    Why do I hate so many Muslims? And why do so many others feel the same way? Some of the reasons were pointed out earlier, some are that they say Islam is peace but they are ever ready to pick up their sticks or guns to beat up anyone who disagrees with them. There are so many hypocrites around that it seems to be the norm among them.

    There are so many mosques around and when the time comes all have to ‘sound the azan’ one by one at every few minutes so that the for the next half hour or so all you do is hear mixed up azans from all around. By mixed up I mean that from one ear you hear ‘Hayya al asalat’ and from the other you hear ‘Ashhudu Allah ilaha illalah’, and that’s not the proper sequence of any azan. This wouldn’t be that much of a problem if their loudspeakers weren’t so very very loud. Why can’t they synchronize their azan so that we get to hear it just once.

    Off course all it takes is full beard to be qualified to declare fatwas. The regular street ‘mullas’ have no practice in using their higher brain functions. They have been memorizing and memorizing for so long that they have never had the time or practice to be able to connect the things that they have memorized and put it to proper use. They have no understanding of what they know.

    Try driving your car by a masjid just after the believers have finished offering their prayers especially after the Friday prayers. The whole street will be filled with people moving about without any regards to the traffic rules. Traffic rules, well they don’t apply to the mullas. Why not, because there is nothing in the Holy book or the traditions of the prophet Muhammad (saw) that says ‘drive you car only on one side of the road’ and nothing about stopping at a red light.

    They look down upon you if you are a man and don’t have a full beard, or if you are a woman wearing tight revealing clothing. Why don’t these ‘mullas’ lower their eyes when such a woman is around them. Hey mulla mind your own business.

    They say that their fast becomes makrooh because an attractive, slightly dressed woman passed by in-front of her. Hey mulla! Your fast became makrooh because you were staring at her with so much interest you couldn’t see anything else. Why do you expect to live in an environment that has no distractions, nothing to take you away from the ‘straight path’. Live in this world with all of its distractions and then walk on the right path. There is no ‘sawab’ if there is nothing to lure you away from the right path.

    They are so childlike in their logic that you just cannot counter them in their arguments. Like the saying says ‘Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.’ Take for example the lame argument

    we have so many Ulema already, why do we need two more.

    I still don’t understand why we need yet another Molvi or Molvan? What is wrong with the millions of Molvis we already have? Isn’t it already a case of too many chefs (Maulanas) ruining the broth (religion)?.

    Well why do we need so many teachers, doctors, bus drivers, plumbers, colleges, websites, books, etc. Well one reason is that as the population increases so do all these other things, and good ulema, like good teachers are always in a shortage. The caliber of a lot of our teachers, doctors, leaders is just as bad as the caliber of a lot of our ulemas.
    These mullas take one or two examples of how the people in the west behave and say that all or most of them are just like that. You can read the exact same kind of thing in this very blog

    FYI, most polygamists from Pakistan in the west legally divorce their wives so they can collect social welfare (free clothing, health care) from their respective countries.

    I am sure that who ever wrote the above sentence has the same mulla mentality and therefore didn’t do any research into this topic. If I am wrong then let us know how many polygamists are in these countries and of them how many have divorced their wives to collect welfare. Maybe they did divorce their wife, but that could be because of the laws of that country or for any other reason, how do you know its to collect welfare.

    The part about Allahnakhwastah and Allahhafiz was amusing, but that too showed the mulla like intolerance for change. Why change the way you talk, or behave or live your life. Just because there could be a better way is no reason to change your thinking, is it.
    Man, these self righteous, know-it-all mullas! When will they learn? It seems very much like the amreeki infidels when in the early ninetees they changed their way of talking and called the new way ‘politically correct’. So now a 14 year old girl was a woman and a black man was African American even though he was from Makran, Pakistan. And they could sue you if you didn’t talk the way they wanted you to talk.

    Why do these mullas base their fatwas on gossip and hearsay without finding out for sure what the real reason for any event is.

    I have heard cases where women mureedans of FH are asking for talaaq because the husband won’t remove picture frames from their homes! Khuda-o-Akbar….!!!

    ‘I have heard’, so it must be true and because of that overpowering proof ‘FH must be a budbakht’. Like any self respecting mulla this one will never go and ask ‘FH’ about any incident of that nature, ‘I have heard’ and ‘I read it on the net’ is proof enough. Neither logic nor illogic can convince some people.

    My point is that we blame the mullas for this and for that while we also think like them, and most likely will act like them if we were in their shoes.

    Ibrahim, although none of us has the power to change any ones mind, your answering wasn’t useless, it provided all of us with a lot of good information, which we should verify on our own.

    In case there any confusion, I believe in what’s revealed in the Quran and in the Ahadees of the prophet Muhammad (saw). I also believe that the Quran and the hadith will always be a guidance for us regardless of which century we are in. Miswak is better than toothpaste/toothbrush because first of all it is sunnah. Besides that, it is much more environmentally friendly. Unless it has been sprayed with pesticide it is also much safer than toothpaste. Just google the phrase ‘dangers of toothpaste’ and decide for yourself. We can only assume that a certain hadith has a certain meaning, but there can be many other reason for it that we may find out later. We just have to make sure that we keep growing trees.

    Humankinds understanding of science, especially biological science is still very limited. Before the1970′s fat was the food for athletes, our pahelwans used to eat desi ghee and every thing else that the medical science of the 1980′s and 1990′s said is bad for you. Current studies are again saying that natural foods high in fat are good for you. Check out Mercola dot com and Al sears dot com. If we stick to the Hadith will be benefit in more ways than we think.

    But I still hate a lot of the muslims. Because like me they are half-literate, short tempered hypocrites. Who only follow the right path when it suites them.

    BTW once a group of young mullas were going to madrasah in another part of the city. For this they had rented a bus. The head mulla reminded the younger mulla-to-bee’s that it is wrong to stare at women, so if any one should see a women, he should say ‘astaghfirullah’. The whole trip went by quietly. Then near the end of the journey one of the mullas said out loud ‘astaghfirullah’. In response, the rest of the mullas shouted ‘Where’? ‘Where’?

    Assalamu alaikum


  144. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 6:19 pm

    People will keep ranting and chanting because this is a religious post. I would like to go back to Tajweed topic.

    A friend of mine sent me this piece of info which could be very useful for those who are taking Tajweed’s classes.


    What are the most common tajweed errors you notice when people recite the Quran?

    The top few I notice are:
    - missing qalqalah
    - missing ikhfa
    - always doing takhfeef of raa
    - not stretching in places of ghunnah
    - not pronouncing taa or kaaf saakin with air
    - prounouncing taa or kaaf mutaharrik with air
    - not distinguishing between Daad and daal
    - not distinguishing between taa and Taa
    - not distinguishing between Haa and haa
    - not distinguishing between zaal, dhaal, Daad, and Zaa
    - not distinguishing between ‘ayn and hamzah


  145. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 6:41 pm

    Khawer sahab/sahiba, no offense but you sound very confusing to me. After reading your rant, I am sure you have never met any Islamic scholar in your real life nor a mullah. For you any person who keeps a beard is a mullah or anyone who comes out of masjid is a “MULLAH”. How old are you dear? I am sure Allah has given you brain to comprehend things properly.


    But I still hate a lot of the muslims. Because like me they are half-literate, short tempered hypocrites. Who only follow the right path when it suites them

    *smile*- when they re like you then who gave you right to say anythnig about them when you are just like them[a *mullah*]? shouldn’t we all curse you as well right here? Also, you will be asked about your own acts and deeds in your Qabar, you will not be freed just by saying “Please look at them, they were also bad!!”

    Also, only mullahs are not muslims. those who dont have beards also calim to be muslims like you. Are you a muslim? If yes then don’t you know that the Prophet[saw] never followed the Hate policy like you? did prophet hate jews,pagans or christians? Instead of raising fingers on others, if you spend only 1% of your life time to read the life of Muhamamd[saw] and Quran itself then you wouldn’t get time to pick others mistakes because you will find infinite errors and sins inside you and if you would be a real follower of Allah then your entire life would get utilized to fix your own mistakes. Calm down my friend. Hating others only destroy you.


  146. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 25th, 2007 @ 9:25 pm

    Come to Knowledge, Come to Light, Forget Religion and Superstition, Remember What is RIGHT.


  147. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 26th, 2007 @ 12:10 am

    German scholar, Christian scholar, Muslim scholar, what difference does it make anyway? A scholar by definition must have an un-biased, objective view that is based on facts. So, if that ‘scholar’ is biased because he is German, or Pakistani, then his/her views are not scholarly at all. You should worry if the views are scholarly, not whether they are from a German or American, or anyone.


  148. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 26th, 2007 @ 1:25 am

    Come to Knowledge, Come to LIGHT, Forget Religion, Remember what is RIGHT…FREE YOUR MIND.


  149. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 3:00 am

    Those who say “Allah Hafiz” are Slaves of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA), followers of that agent of KSA, Farhat Hashmi, and BLINDED BY HER FOOLISH FAITH. All FREE Pakistani people may say “Khuda Hafiz” like our noble Pakistani ancestors always said. There is no need to be an agent of KSA. Pakistan has a far superior history and culture than those desert rats from KSA. Think like a Pakistani…FREE YOUR MIND.


  150. wasiq (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 4:33 am

    I would encourage zainab or anyone to post more and more and more about religious events in city …

    @siddiqi sab….sunna hai FBI ka chappa per giya hai iss post ki waja sey…..are you sure you want more religious posts here at the KMB..???

    http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=56978

    SURAJ KI DOOSTI PEY UNHAIN NAZ THA FARAZ
    LEYKIN YEAH KYA KAY GHAEIR KA AHESAAN LEEJEEAY…


  151. Balma (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 10:59 am

    * What are the most common tajweed errors you notice when people recite the Quran?

    The top few I notice are:
    - missing qalqalah
    - missing ikhfa
    - always doing takhfeef of raa
    - not stretching in places of ghunnah
    - not pronouncing taa or kaaf saakin with air
    - prounouncing taa or kaaf mutaharrik with air
    - not distinguishing between Daad and daal
    - not distinguishing between taa and Taa
    - not distinguishing between Haa and haa
    - not distinguishing between zaal, dhaal, Daad, and Zaa
    - not distinguishing between ‘ayn and hamzah

    ****** my comment

    bhai Adnan,
    When 80 percent of the population can not read write Urdu, Sindhi, or Pashto etc in Pakistan,
    what benefits will the umatees in Pakistan (or any non arabic speaking muslims) get from such details?

    How much closer will we get to Jannat if we can properly distinguish between sounds of zay, zaal, zuwaad, and zuway?

    Will there be less rishvat khori in PK if we can all distinguish betweem seen, say, and suwaad?

    Khudaa toom ko siraat-e-mustaqeem per layae;
    Aameen, Summaa Aameen….sorry thummaa Aameen!


  152. Balma (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 11:12 am

    * Lucifer
    ************ My Comment

    *Those who say “Allah Hafiz” are Slaves of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA), followers of that agent of KSA, Farhat Hashmi,

    ************
    I don’t know if the above statement is true, but
    What started as Allah hafiz instead of Khuda hafiz in PK, ended up as hadeeth for hadees, ummah for ummat, hidayah for hidayat, and jannah for jannat etc.

    koee batlaa-ae yeh andaaz-e-gooftugo kyaa hae?

    Pehlay aadhi qaum Urdu may English boltee thee, now 60% is speaking Arabic in Urdu!
    Reaction? Sometimes, I think that is indeed the case.


  153. bingo (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 11:16 am

    @Adil + Lucifer + Akram

    It seems you are the same person, most probably a chirstian, waiting for ‘white’ Jesus. Like to call God as Khuda. Now, Jesus was not white, he was a semite………yes that’s right, Asian looking. No white skin, no blue eyes and no golden hair. So stop peddling your moronic ‘dreams’. Do not consider for one moment that ‘others’ know nothing about your tribes plans.

    And here is good news, err bad news for you. The whole plan is in severe jeopardy and is collapsing. Enjoy its demise before your petrified eyes.


  154. Balma (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 1:31 pm

    * Ibrahim
    ******* My comments

    * In Zaad al-Maad of ibn Qayyim and you can get a copy of Zaad al-Maad from Nafees Academy (since you gave me the publisher for Behasti Zawar!!) it says: Ibn Sina (Avicenna) says: The most beneficial of urine is the urine of Bedouin camels which are called najeeb.

    * In the Emirati newspaper al-Ittihaad (issue no. 11172, Sunday 6 Muharram 1427 AH/5 February 2006) it says: One

    In an article by Dr Ahlaam al-’Awadi, which was published in al-Da’wah magazine, issue no. 1938, 25 Safar 1425 AH/15 April 2004 CE,

    * Prof. Dr. ‘Abd al-Fattaah Mahmoud Idrees says: With regard to the benefits of camel’s urine in treating disease, Ibn Seena said in his Qanoon: The most beneficial of urine is the urine of the Bedouin camels known as najeeb. Camel’s urine is beneficial in treating al-hazaaz, and it was said that al-hazzaz is a pain in the heart caused by anger and so on. Camel’s urine, especially the urine of a young she-camel – is used as a cleansing substance to wash wounds and sores, to make the hair grow, to strengthen and thicken it and to prevent it falling out, and it is used to treat diseases of the scalp and dandruff.

    * In a Master’s thesis by an engineer in applied chemistry, Muhammad Awhaaj Muhammad, that was submitted to the faculty of applied chemistry in the al-Jazeerah university in Sudan, and approved by the Dean of science and postgraduate studies in the university in November 1998 CE,

    *Note this research is from Muslims. How are you feeling by now? There is more and what I wrote above can be read at: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=83423&ln=eng

    *********
    First of all, let me say here that the only scientist worth considering here is Ibn-e-Sina.
    Sudanese universities are not exactly bastions of science and medicine and even if someone was not religiously motivated to fabricate the stories, the sample size is too small. Next, are you going to quote some research from jalalabad univ?

    Clinical trials of drugs require more than just 25 test patients. Similarly, UAE and Saudi papers are not trust worthy when it comes to science and medicine mixing with religion. Reminds me of a paper presented by SUPARCO chief in Zulmat-ul-Haq’s time that suggested Pakistan should use jinns to produce electricity!
    Yes kids… this happenned. No wonder our nation is so jaahil and has surpassed in population even ex-East Pakistan. When you have rulers like Zia and Fahad, scientists and newspapers can propose anything to look good.

    But, obviously Ibn-e-sina is a different story!

    I was not aware of his comment on Urine from camels. But, i would still suggest you get it confirmed via some lab tests before you rush to Clifton or a local zoo to get your new shampoo or mouth wash replacement.

    There are side effects of every thing. yes, eczema may go, but urine drink may lead to kidney failure. May be a good mouthwash, perhaps, but may lead to gall bladder enlargement!
    Would love to know if Ibn-eSina, who I think was a great scientist, did enough experiments to check side effects.

    I guess the bedouins thought of camel’s urine of some benefit, just like some Indians thought cow’s urine was a good thing to drink. One of them in recent history thought that his own urine was his sehet kaa raaz (Murar jee Desai).
    So, may be there is something to this urine drinking business.

    Also, I went to the website you mentioned and found the following excerpt interesting.
    Also noted Hanafi’s abrogation note on Bukhari’s camel urine Hadees.

    Here is the excerpt (Typing mistake are from the original site, and not mine):

    Im√¢m al-Tirmidh√Æ said, after narrating the `Urayna h.ad√Æth, that the majority of the authorities do not consider the urine of edible animals filthy. Ibn Qud√¢ma reiterates this ruling in the Mughn√Æ and cites, among those that consider it pure, al-Zuhr√Æ, Yah.y√¢ al-Ans.√¢r√Æ, `At.√¢’, al-Nakha`√Æ, al-Thawr√Æ, M√¢lik, and Ah.mad. This is also the position of Muhammad ibn al-H.asan al-Shayb√¢n√Æ as stated by al-T.ah.√¢w√Æ in Sharh. Ma`√¢n√Æ al-Ath√¢r and al-Sarakhs√Æ in al-Mabs√ªt.. `Abd al-Razz√¢q in his Mus.annaf and al-T.ah.√¢w√Æ narrate the same from Muh.ammad ibn al-H.anafiyya, Ibr√¢h√Æm al-Nakha`√Æ, and `At.√¢’, some adding that camel urine is also sniffed for medicine as well as cow urine and sheep urine. Al-Bukh√¢r√Æ narrated:

    >

    Imâm al-Shâfi`î considered the Prophetic prescription of camel urine a life-and-death exception that has the same status as the dispensation for eating carrion meat in case of extreme necessity (and any filthy substance for medication other than intoxicants).26 Similarly, the H.anafî School considers the ruling of filth annulled if there is certainty of medicinal benefit, otherwise, camel urine remains najis according to Abû H.anîfa and al-T.ah.âwî. In addition, the `Uraniyyîn h.adîth itself is abrogated in the H.anafî view. Several major Shâfi`îs such as Ibn Khuzayma, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn H.ibbân, al-Is.t.akhrî, and al-Rûyânî defected to the position of Mâlik and Ah.mad.27 In the Mâlikî Madhhab prayer is valid even on road-paths soiled with the urine and droppings of edible animals.28 Ibn Rushd РAverroes Рin his masterpiece of comparative fiqh titled Bidâyat al-Mujtahid says the rationale of the permissive ruling is that the refuse of edible animals is not repugnant, unlike that of humans and inedible animals.

    End

    Also, please read the following excerpt from the same site referred to by Ibrahim. Here is a discussion if the people who were compiling hadees made a mistake in thinking the word was ‘their urine’. Note: 200 years passed before the first sahah-sittah was compiled.

    Begin (again typos not mine)

    XI. The Colostrum Hypothesis
    Shaykh Muh.ammad al-`Ak√Æl√Æ, the Syrian-American translator of Ibn al-Qayyim’s al-T.ibb al-Nabaw√Æ under the title Medicine of the Prophet (upon him peace), told this writer that he considered the mention of the term “their urine” (abw√¢lih√¢) in all the above h.ad√Æths a copyist’s mistaken rewording of the word “their colostrum” (alb√¢’ih√¢) in view of two factors: the word alb√¢’ih√¢ is so rare as to remain incomprehensible and therefore implausible to most copyists; second, alb√¢’ih√¢ looks so much like alb√¢nih√¢, “their milk,” as to suggest diplology. The well-intentioned copyist then supplied the closest possible term in his or her mind – abw√¢lih√¢. (Colostrum even beats milk as a vitamin and antibody- packed diuretic and is produced by the parturient camel for four to five days.) Yet the hypothesis does not stand to scrutiny in light of the profusion of the transmission chains and written manuscripts unanimous on the abw√¢lih√¢ wording and the fact that camel urine had a history of medicinal use among desert Arabs with which all the early Scholars seemed familiar. And All√¢h knows best.

    End

    Regarding covering up and imprisonment of women:
    *Hopefully, if you are even a little wise, my above comments should put you in your place. It might be imprisonment for you, but not for others. Read sister Zainub’s comments to see another and correct perspective.

    ******
    ACtually, your points are not very persuasive.
    And even if you and your like minded are able to confine Muslim women into haram like places, all what it does is that it stops men from looking at women. It still leaves the chances of women being attracted to other women. Since women can see each other , they might get attracted to each other and make a move on each other. What would be your solution. Kill the lesbians?

    Your scheme of secluding women may protect them from men, but can’t protect them from each other!

    Another social problem that can rise due to extreme thoughts of people like you will actually lead to destruction of Muslim societies in atleast Muslim minority countries, such as India and USA.
    Listen, boys will be boys – and when they can’t even chat with Muslim girls, because Muslim girls are walking around in tents if lucky, and confined to their homes most probably, they will end up marrying non Muslim girls. So, God forbid if your scheme is ever successfull. It will be the end of Muslim presence in India, US, and China. If Muslim men and women can’t even see or talk to each other, no I am not about dating, just seeing and talking to each other, you think they will have interest in each other! Already, good 10-20 Muslims are marrying out of religion in USA ( and I guess even in India).

    I really think, people like Fitnah Hashmi are agents. If people follow them, they will be desroyed in a generation or two.

    At this point, I will like to go bit off tanget as you complain….. and yes, i am not a lakeer kaa faqeer (or cicle kaa faqeer, since we are talking of tangents) or as you would think I deviate from the sirat-e-mustaqeem…. I am thinking of an excerpt I read from Navab Saeed Ahmed khan Chhataari Marhoom’s autobiograpy. Here Mr. Chhattaari describes his visit to a mansion near London (in 1930′s I guess).
    He describes what he saw was a large number of Englishmen being trained in classical arabic language, Quran, and your favorite hadeeses and also taught stupid points like length of trousers, beard’s importance, and moonch no moonch ahadees.
    He writes that a kind hearted englishman who took him to that secret mansion claimed that these english ‘imams’ are being trained and will be implanted in arab countries as locals to screw the Muslims.
    I will be very appreciative of anyone who can tell me how to get Navab Chattari’s bio. I must confirm what I read in the excerpt from it.

    I have also read about Lawrence of Arabia ending up in Lahore’s Anarkali bazar. Even his British history talks about his visit to Bombay. But Lahore presence is not mentioned except a story I read in some Urdu magazine. According to that story Lawrence planted himself as a baba jee in anaarkali….remember he was expert in Arabic- and showed such kashf-o-karaamaat that even married the daughter of another baba jee in anar kali bazar. Finally people figured out he was a fraud and gave him a thrashing Lahori style, and he had to escape from Lahore with the help from Panjab’s British governor. His ex-wife (the other baba jee’s daughter) ended up marrying Shaikh Abullah (sher-e-Kashmir), father of current KAshimri Leader farooq Abudllah. I don’t know if this story is real, but I am sure there are implants…..to destroy Muslims and capture their resources and lands. I wonder how many such baba jees and beebee jees there are in Pakistan (or Canada). Is Fitnah Hashmi such an agent?

    * Do you even read what you write. Wazu is not to clean the face and feet only. Noose is there, arms are there, mouth is there. You stand in front of Allah during namaz in best possible manner—clean and appropriately clothed. And, our prophet has shown that the level of such cleaniness required is achieved by performing wazu or ghusul when required (but least is ghusul). Also, your lack of knowledge is again evident. If you do a wazu, let’s say in the morning for fajr, and if you don’t do anything that breaks a wazu, then you don’t have to repeat it if you want. So, your argument about showering once is plenty doesn’t hold water when a person can do wazu only once as well. So, why do away from wazu when wazu can be (and should be) done during shower/ghusul.

    *****
    Briefly, you take things literally.
    Just one proof is your comment that: “doing vazu while taking ghusal”. What difference does it make, if vazu is a subset of shower? But, then again…!!!???!!

    bye bye


  155. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 27th, 2007 @ 2:12 pm

    Come to Knowledge, Come to LIGHT, Forget Religion, Remember what is RIGHT … FREE YOUR MIND.

    Who really cares what a certain Hadees actually said? There is no definitive evidence of these things…they have been re-interpreted over the centuries. They are now only of historical interest. Think of the future, not the past. The future can be better if we make it better…the past was great only in your fantasies. I’m talking about that fantasy of the Great Islamic Empire that you people seem to be obsessed with. It never happened…just stories from Alif Laila.


  156. bingo (unregistered) on May 28th, 2007 @ 11:43 am

    Some [EDITED OUT (reason: personal attack)] wrote Islamic Empire never happened. Look at it [EDITED OUT (reason: personal attack)]:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Age_of_Caliphs.png


  157. Lucifer (unregistered) on May 28th, 2007 @ 7:32 pm

    I wrote that an Islamic Empire never existed. Then I saw the link posted by Bingo…and I was right, as usual! The link just shows an image of an area labeled as “Islamic Caliphate”, without an administrative capital. That was not an empire, since it did not have a single administrative capital. It was just a region where people who had converted to Islam lived. Today, Muslims live across a far larger area, yet we don’t call this larger area an ‘Empire’. No single administrative capital exists for the areas where Muslims are settled today, nor existed for all the lands where Muslims were settled at any time during the past.

    As an example, we recognize the Ottoman Empire because it’s administrative capital was Istanbul. The administrative capital of the British Empire was London. The administrative capital of the Persian Empire was Persepolis. Of the Roman Empire was Rome. Understand?

    So, Muslims just fantasize about some past glory they call Islamic Empire. And worse, some foolish Muslims even fantasize that those imaginary ‘glory’ days will return! Keep dreaming duffers.


  158. Zainub (unregistered) on May 28th, 2007 @ 7:46 pm

    In view of the repeated and unfortunately failed warnings through out the course of this discussion to refrain from personally attacking other posters and keep the discussion on topic and civilized, I am now permanently disabling comments on this thread. Thank you for participating in this discussion.



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