For how long?
I remember listening to the stories of making of Pakistan from my grandmother and believed in them (as both my grandmother and grandfather had worked with Quaid-e-Azam and Liaqut Ali Khan and later had been in government as well).
Among the many stories of struggle and war was this story of what was believed to keep Karachi safe. I Had doubts, as both of my grandparents were very educated and did not believed in craps of “mazars and manats”. However the saints and the heroes were respected but the attitude of people towards their mausoleum was strictly condemned.
This particular story that I’m talking about is concerning the protection of Karachi.
Later when I grew up, I once found this book in my (Late) grandfather’s library which narrated how the unexploded bombs were found on the shore of Clifton during the India- Pakistan war of 1965. Indian fighter pilots when asked were reported to say that they saw some people in white dresses (like souls) who catched the bombs they threw, hence none of the bombs hit the ground and never exploded.
I do not remember the name of the book, nor the author, neither is the text written above the exact as read. It has been ages and I do not remember any reference to quote.
Times and again my mom used to tell me this story too.
On 26th June, I read this article in The Daily Times, which refreshed the old memories of the story, “The saints will save us” What’s the truth behind it, is a long discussion. This topic has been controversial and will always be, I don’t want to get into it. Just that “How long will the saints save us?”.
I also read nice stories when I was a child. They were Ali Baaba and the Forty Thieves, Goldilocks and the Three bears and not to forget Little Red Riding Hood….. and this story saved me from the BIG BAD wolf.
well they still say that this and all the previous cyclones, coming from the sea are diverted because of the 7 saints and their mazars located near the shore lines of karachi …
some believe in them with all their heart … some say there is a science behind this why cyclones get diverted … what is the truth remains a debate … but i believe in the later …
God help’s those who help themselves…hmmm
@UN
My heritage and spiritual background compelled me to write this down, – The INEPT 4 QUL molvi may not believe in it but those who know Islam & advent of ISLAM in the sub-continent have diverse FAITH in the spiritual governance system.
Make note – The farthest of Sahabi (the friends of Rasul Allah PBUH) who exist is Hazart Salman Farsi in Persia. Persia onwards there exist no trace of any Sahabi travelling & bringing islam to the people but the Respected Honest Muslims who started travelling on the behest of their Teachers for spread of Islam.
As like real time Govt, there exist a spiritual Govt which governs the regions, cities & the countries etc etc for the GLOBE.
Coming back to Karachi – It is divided into 4 regions of Spiritual Mayors governed by One Khalifa.
4 are located – as under:
1. Dargah at Clifton
2. Dargah at Eid Gah Jama Cloth
3. Dargah at Jahangir Road
4. Dargah at Thatta
The Pleading Rulers of Pakistan responsible to plead the case of AWAM to the Boss of Subcontinent – Hazrat Khawaja Moeenuddin Chishti
Hazrat Ali Hajveri aka Data Gunj Baksh (for India & Pakistan)- at Lahore
Hazrat Nizamuddin Olya Mehbob Elahi at Delhi for (Pakistan & India)
&
Hazart Fareeduddin Gunj Shakar at Pakpatan near Multan.
Like the living beings get angry & upset on the deeds of people around them, the spirits also get ticked off, they seldom go HARD, but when the supreme one gets upset, they also stay quiet and dare not interfere and seek pardon for mischiefs’
- I wish not to start any debate on it – so I would not further discuss on the blog.
However it is True, what you have heard and read from your parents books is very true and no denial exist even by the non-belivers.
All the best, -
Ignorance begets ignorance.
The truth is not a ‘debate’ Imran. It is quite established in the world of science. There is a very scientfic (read: factual, tested repeatedly and confirmed) explanation for all natural hazards.
Where were these saints and spirits during the earthquake or tsunami? Or were those victims more sinful than us so they didn’t deserve ‘protection’ from God’s ‘wrath’?
@Jamal: That’s interesting. Check this as well:
http://www.chowrangi.com/the-men-invisible.html
bayl, you will die someday. So do you believe you are a sinner?
It’s so funny people take science as a faith and believe in it ignorantly and blindly while in reality science is fragile. What is considered scientifically true could be declared false after few years or centuries
Jawed Ch:
tinyurl.com/352guz
I believe in Science.
The reason that most cyclones either slow down or change their course when they are near karachi is the mangrove forests and the geographic location of Karachi. The wind, high tides and pressure losses its strength by hitting the mangroves and gets considerably slow and sometimes even change the course due these forests. Secondly the Manora and other Islands also provide us a protective sheild. However the city will see terrible rainfall in the upcoming years, Due to rising temprature of oceans we will witness low air pressures just before the monson season, these low air pressure in warm waters would create more intense cyclones in the arabian sea.
The question for how long we will be able to survive these cyclones has a very simple answer (which we the residents of Karachi must know), Just as long as we protect mangroves and Islands. We are losing mangroves really fast and with announced development projects on the beaches and Islands we are opening our doors to storms.
People take science as a faith? A bag of contradictions if I ever saw one. No I don’t take it as a faith.
//What is considered scientifically true could be declared false after few years or centuries//
And such is the nature of science. Constant revision, constant scepticism, constant renewal of ideas, theories, facts.
This continuous struggle for the truth and explanation behind natural phenomenon is what makes science more respectable. At least its ideas don’t stagnate after a couple of centuries.
Science is a Latin Word meaning Knowledge -
This is the phrase i remember from class 3.
Knowledge itself is combination of 2 Greek words
KNOW
LEDGE
find out what these 2 words means…. ! and you will know what science is.
Jesus was born to Virgin Mary – Does science acknowledge that ????
AZAD ADLEYA KAY LE_AY KITNA JOSH HAI
C J kay Wastay Ajab josh o kharosh hai
MOHSIN WOH MAYREE QOUM KA ABDUL QADEER KHAN
AB BHI ASEER HAI MAGAR DUNYA KHAMOSH HAI
One small correction – it’s not ‘…catched the bombs’ but ‘caught’ is the correct past tense.
People take science as a faith
Evolution.
And such is the nature of science. Constant revision, constant scepticism, constant renewal of ideas, theories, facts.
yeah then how could TRUST in such knowledge which keeps changing all the time? all your cyclone/weather theories could be refuted wrong later by someone. Scientific knowledge is not absolute hence can’t be trusted while religion is entirely opposite,atleast Islam. WHAT was said 1500 years back about world is still valid. It’s not Islam’s fault if God already taught about different time frame in Quran which was discoverd by einstein a century ago.
No I don’t take it as a faith.
It is quite established in the world of science. There is a very scientfic (read: factual, tested repeatedly and confirmed) explanation for all natural hazards.
-by Bayl
You believe in that those scientific theories are true though you woldn’t even have studied about it. This is called blind following.
Science is all about studying objects made by God. The actions performed by using those objects were later discovered as scientific methods. Allah will not come on earth and show some magic. He’s a creator and he has set some rules to drive this universe, just like a programmer add rules(logics) to run his software.
If this is something which is called science then It’s more funnier than any cartoon on cartoon network. Mr Sagan could just wish to have such “Alif Lailvi” life story
Actaully Mr. Siddiqui, ‘What is considered scientifically true could be declared false after few years or centuries’ this is what is called progress. To evolve to better one’s knowledge and self.
Incidentally that is the message of Islam too. To continuously change for the better.
This has been repeated so many times here before but here it is once again. There is no concept or place for Pir, Fakir, Sufi, Maulvi etc. in Islam. All these titles are alien to Islam. However I do realize that when I say Islam, I am not talking of the Pakistani version of Islam.
Like it or not, Camel back riding era is over. These are days for the ‘Wild Hogs’. Does this make it any less spiritual?
When one’s faith starts to lag and sag, and gets diluted, one starts to look for divine signs in most everything. Holy apparitions become common.
Also, no scientist can claim that science has found out 100% things exist in this universe, if someone does than he’s not a scientist. How an incomplete knowledge could be trusted so blindly? I don’t get at all.
Unaiza:-…and an old woman ives on the moon.
I wonder where did the mysterious green or white clad men disappear in 1971 or they were only meant for West Pakistan, not East. Nor did Karachi’s pet saints, all four of them, were any good for the 250 odd who died during the rains. Saints’power also failed against the goons on MQM on 12 May.
There are no miracles — in present or in past –never. Nature takes its course, no matter what. If anything can stall the nature it is science, not so called saints, mystics, dead or alive.
Jay Jay – You missed out on the 1965 war. The saints also failed to protect us then.
Or maybe they did protect us by stopping the war which would have left Pakistan defeated!
It is divided into 4 regions of Spiritual Mayors governed by One Khalifa.
I hope that there is no religious ground for your beliefs. Ask yourself one question. do these “spirits” listen when you call them? if yes do they listen all the time or they sometime need to have rest and other humane issues to deal with. If answer to both of them is yes, implies that they have some property attributed only to Allah. That is surely a misconception. It may be due to dua of some of these respected buzurgs that Karachi is safe from cyclones although without proof but its rather hard to digest why not the acts of people will determine the factors and how long will the shield of dua last.
Scientific reasons are more appropriate as someone mentioned the deforestation is major reasons for new cyclones.
@ Jamal Shamsi
..”onwards there exist no trace of any Sahabi travelling & bringing islam to the people…”
In the province of Baluchistan, there exists a small city called “Punjgor”….literrally meaning “Five Graves” (Punj-Gor). These five graves are said to be of Sahaba (RA). Haven’t been there myself, haven’t read too much on the subject eitehr, can’t claim it as 100% authentic info…. HOWEVER… Baluchistan is farther from Arabia, than Persia :)
can someone elaborate???
Agreed that There is no concept or place for Pir, Fakir, Sufi, Maulvi etc. in Islam. All these titles are alien to Islam..
Many people say that religion & science r contradictory to each other. This may be true for other religions, but certainly not for Islam. Science is in no way contradictory to Islam, infact what Islam mentioned 1400 + years ago, science is agreeing upon it. If currently there seems to be any contradiction b.w the above two then it is because that science still has to go a long way.
Look at this way, Islam mentions that in the ending days of world, there will be more natural disasters, more rains etc. Scientists today have exactly the same thing to say. Although there exist scientific reasons for that, but role of divine force could not be ruled out.
Bozz: True but then I did not want to challenge another belief of Siddiqi et al in the same breath. They don’t listen to reason or rationality.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/science/
“Science’s dispassionate stare examines issues publicly, exchanges information openly, discusses awkward points objectively, and builds up a network of interdependent ideas and theories that progressively expose the complex as an outcome of the simple. Religion’s inwardly directed sentimental glow reflects on issues privately, exchanges information by assurance and assertion, discusses awkward points by warfare, terror, and coercion, and builds up a network of conflicting ideas that conceal ignorance under a cloak of high-flown yet empty prose.
“Science reveals where religion conceals. Where religion purports to explain, it actually resorts to tautology. To assert that “God did it” is no more than an admission of ignorance dressed deceitfully as an explanation. Science, with its publicly accessible corpus of information and its open, scrutable arguments, can lead the wondering to an understanding of the entire physical world.
“Science respects the power of the human intellect; religion belittles it. Science gives us the prospect of full understanding, for it continues to show that, given time, there is no aspect of the world that is closed to its scrutiny and explanation. Religion disarmingly avers that human brains are too puny to achieve full comprehension. Yet science is progressively advancing toward complete knowledge, leaving religions bobbing about in its wake. ”
Source: http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=atkins_18_2
@jayjay & bozz
Spiritual powers are there always and it protect us when necessary, Allah says there is a time for everything, there is Hikmat in every act. If you remember hazrat NOH (A.S) all the people who didn’t believe in God or didn’t obey the message of God they were all drowned in water. Do you that was a cruel of God to kill them or you agree that there was HIKMAT of God behind?. It is HE who has command over everything. Specially to jayjay, if I agree with you post above then it means no one should die in Karachi bcz there are Sufis and saints there should be no natural disasters. Sufis have spiritual powers and they use them when they get Orders or permission from Allah. Hazrat Suleman (A.S.) had command over Air and whenever he wanted to use his command he use to say in the end “………………ALLAH KAY HUKUM SAY” means every act they performed had a HUKUM from Allah not only NABI’s powers. Hazrat Muhammad (S.A.W.W.) made 2 pieces of moon on an instance and at that time even he said “Allah kay hokum say …………..”. So the central idea of my post is Sufis and saints they use their spiritual powers when instructed by God. It is wrong to judge them or to challenge them by saying why they haven’t used their powers at that time. People use to hurt Hazrat Muhammad(S.A.W.W.) and we all Muslims know this and believe on this, do u think Allah didn’t have enough powers at that time (naozubillah) to protect HIM? HE do but there was HIKMAT that’s why he didn’t protect him.
JayJay Mian, talking about reasoning like carl segan? *grin*.
BTW, did you read out all articles on your given link you just googled and pasted here? ;)
Kash: You have swept your ignorance under an undefined term, Hikmat. Why this “Hikmat” is used mysteriously and selectively? Why rules dictate when should this Hikmat be used and when not?
If you put your mind to it you may discover that this hikmat actually is the work of nature, which abides by certain laws, and is not impulsive and without reason.
I for one do not believe in saints. I believe in Allah, Quraan and his prophets. The existence of saints is in the form of stories. We muslims are now divided into sects only because we started believing more in these stories than sticking to what we are suppose to do i.e. stick to Quraan!
ANOTHER useless post by Unaiza where she comes up again with her PERSONAL thoughts rather than an event to share! Who the heck manages this blog anyway? Seriously?
@jayjay
The rules of hikmat are defiend by Allah and it is HE who select when where and how it should be used. Do u think command over Air and water by Hazrat Suleman was some kind of science?. What theory can you give about that? All the Nabi’s had abilities to perform one or more miricles. How science describe miricles? Allah says “AUR HUM NAY ZAMEEN AUR ASMAAAN KO TUMHARAY LIYE MUSSAKHAR KAR DIA” this means Allah wants you to understand the world it is HE who capables you to gaint he knowledge, but up to certain extent, there are some areas which you should not argue about, there are some limits set for humans. Palmistry is a art, Islam says it is prohabbit, this is a subject, but islam does not allows us, why? bcz HE has set limit for us Allah donot want us to know about our future before ahead. i heard this since my childhood and i guess you will agree with me “GHAIB (future) ka ILAM (knowledge) sirf Allah ko hai” i am not quite sure who said this or where this is exactly written that why will not quote but this is true.
With reference to science I would like to share one thing I read couple of days ago. There was a English Astrologer who read (or been told by someone about a surah of Quran) “HUM NAY Hazrat Muhammad(S.A.W.W.) KO TAMAM (all) JAHANOON (worlds) KAY LIYE NABI BANA KAR BHEJA” he got a strong belief that there are other planets as well where life is present. Allah could have used the world DUNYA but HE used JAHANOON which is plural. So the deep you go in science you will find out it is nature who is allowing you step by step to learn further about the world, planet, plants & animals etc.
@Zeeshan Syed
Unaiza has selected a good topic as many people have misconceptions about sufis and saints, If the topic sounds you useless then you are not bound to comment but i think instead of just moaning about the problems of karachi we can discuss something which can increace our knowledge or atleast can clear out misconceptions.
No I dont think it’s such a useless post afterall. Islamic Tsawwaf or spiritual path is an undeniable truth of history and an essential part of Islam. The torch of Islam was carried to the subcontinent and many other parts of the world by Sufis accompanying or following in the footsteps of Muslim armies. These saints are because of whom you and me are Muslims today, whether or not we attach any value to our being Muslims is unfortunately another discussion.
I think Mr Shamsi has been too overboard and literal when posting about a highly subtle and spiritual subject.
Tasawwaf or ‘Sufi-ism’ as we like to call it these days is the spirit of Islam. It means cleansing of one’s spirit through means of Zikr-Allah. When Allah’s Tajalliyat (divine lights) strike the spiritual organs, the spirit is revitalized. One begins to understand Islam and starts acting upon it out of Allah’s love and reverence. As one progresses on this path, one is drawn closer to Allah, and his ‘Aimal’ (actions) keep improving. Not just namaz, Roza, but his worldly dealings with his family, associates and friends.
It has more to do with practice than with blogging, so lets discuss it here nomore. But lets not outrightly refute something we know nothing about.
And Bayl, I believe one should never be afraid to know the truth or to learn something one did’nt know about before. Science merely explains or hypothesizes about various physical realities. Spiritual lands are beyond its reach. If you’ve read Iqbal, this is what he means when he says,
“Kafir ki yeh pehchan ke afaaq mein gum hai;
Momin ki yeh pehchan ke gum is mein hein afaq”
If the urdu is too hard, tough luck. But honestly, science does’nt even answer the basic questions of our existence. No scientific experiment has ever produced anything out of nothing. Science merely picks up pieces from nature, modifies or combines them to make new things. What science has given mankind is like peanuts comparing with what it has taken away.
science is good, as it explains various physical phenomena within the four dimensions we can percieve but all of science breaks at two points,
1. the first spark of life (in evolution) which opportunist evolutionists claim to be a chance occurance (highly unscientific).
2. the origin of the universe (most notably the hypothesis of big bang). it is very interesting to see that now physicists believe that the big bang’s inconcsistency with scientific explanation can be best overrid by the supporting theory o parrarel universes (universes which are not bound to 4D but higher dimensions) which we can never percieve. This concept is actually pretty much accepted in the scientific circles because how it was ‘evolved’ from the supergravity group and the string theory group.
So this is the in-thing, there r higher dimensions and we cant percieve them. simple!
As for Islam, sufism has been a part but limited to the purification of the self, not singing and dancing and especially not worshipping death sufis or so called saints. they r dead, they r done.
a very good video which talks about the content of this blog is here:
http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50017&TitleName=Mokhtar_Maghraoui
watch Devine Decree- part 1 and 2.
this has been a good debate so far, will read it over the weekend again (if time permits)..
my humble 2 cents:
- Saints CAN’T save anyone- only God does so.. even the prophets weren’t that priviledged.. although their prayers were being heard since they were more close to God..
- ‘mazars’ sort of serve like places for psychic healing.. no harm in paying a visit there once in a while.. instead of wasing your time and money on psychiatrist, save some for that purpose too..
-when science fails to answer, FAITH kicks in and will keep doing that.. for those western-minded pakis having sort of liberal mindset, even the president of the most scientifically advanced country in the world, President Bush, goes to Vetican quite often to get blessings from the pope..
I personally belive in “Maa Ki Dua” and that has saved me so far from some major screw ups and blunders.. thought i know for sure that i can’t live for 1000 years.. :)
* as both my grandmother and grandfather had worked with Quaid-e-Azam and Liaqut Ali Khan and “later had been in government as well”
***** I guess we have your grandparents, among many others, to thank for complete chaos in Pakistan and disgusting conditions in Karachi.
If they had done their job right, we would not be so screwed up. I don’t think anyone should admit to their ancestors working and serving the previous govts of PK. It is not something to write home about!
Another example of our utter laziness!
We do not want to do anything on our own and leave everything to ‘Saints’ who are dead since long!
I am really sorry to ask this question on a saint forum, but any body knows who is the current corps commander for Karachi? thanx
@balma,
you raised a valid point about “my grandparents”…
although i had ignored that line assuming that the author was simply showing off.. LOL..
i was discussing this topis with my friend a couple of days ago.
I DONT AGREE OR DIAGREE WITH THE TEH CONCEPT THAT GOD’S FRIENDS(AULYA ALLAH)PROTECT KARACHI FROM SEA STORMS, BUT I JUST WANNA SHARE HERE A VERY INTERESTING INCIDENT THAT OCCURED AROUND 1940s. AS WE ALL KNOW THAT MARTYRS NEVER DIE (SO THE AULYA ALLAH AS THEY PRACTICE JEHAD BIN NAFS),
SO FRIENDS IN THE 1940 IN IRAQ DURING TEH TIME OF HAJ, EUPRATES OR TIGRIS I DONT EXACTLY KNOW WHICH RIVER IT WAS CAUSED THE FLOOD, AS WE ALL KNOW THREE FAMOUS COMPANIONS OF HAZRAT MOHAMMAD PEACE BE UOPN HIM BURIED THEIR, THEIR GRAVES WERE FILLED WITH WATER, ITS A LONG STORY HOW THIS THING WAS INTIMATED TO MUFTI E AZAM OF IRAQ AND THE RULER OF IRAQ OF THAT TIME THOROUGH DREAMS, ANYWAYS THEY DECIDED TO OPEN UP THE GRAVES OF THOSE COMPANIONS AND BEFORE DOING SO THEY HIRED SOME GERMAN COMPANY TO RECORD THIS EVENT(not sure abt this bit), WHEN THEY OPENED THE GRAVES WHAT THEY FOUND THAT COMPANION BODIES WERE STILL IN THERE THERE WERE NO SIGNS OF DECAY, IT WAS LIKE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SLEEPING IN THEIR GRAVES, THERE BODIES WERE PUT IN THE GLASS CASES PPL AROUND THAT REGION FLOCKED TO WITNESS THAT EVENT, SO FINALLY THEY WERE PUT TO REST IN THEIR NEW GRAVES.
Friends its not a very old incident just happened 60 years ago, there must be proper records of this event in iraq.
My reason to state all this is YOU CANT ALWAYS JUDGE RELIGION ON THE BASIS OF SCEINTIFIC RULES.
HAS THE SCIENCE SOLVED TEH MYSTERY OF BERMUDA TIRNGLE??
Yesterdauy i was watcing docemnentary abt. the MOSES’ mericle , that some scientist from america explained TEH PARTING OF THE SEA THROUGH SCIENTIFIC REASONING.
following are some very interesting links for those who take interest in archealogy, as many things have been revealed through this,
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5ORpMTebI&mode=related&search=
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XoYV-vgX-w
i was discussing this topis with my friend a couple of days ago.
I DONT AGREE OR DIAGREE WITH THE TEH CONCEPT THAT GOD’S FRIENDS(AULYA ALLAH)PROTECT KARACHI FROM SEA STORMS, BUT I JUST WANNA SHARE HERE A VERY INTERESTING INCIDENT THAT OCCURED AROUND 1940s. AS WE ALL KNOW THAT MARTYRS NEVER DIE (SO THE AULYA ALLAH AS THEY PRACTICE JEHAD BIN NAFS),
SO FRIENDS IN THE 1940 IN IRAQ DURING TEH TIME OF HAJ, EUPRATES OR TIGRIS I DONT EXACTLY KNOW WHICH RIVER IT WAS CAUSED THE FLOOD, AS WE ALL KNOW THREE FAMOUS COMPANIONS OF HAZRAT MOHAMMAD PEACE BE UOPN HIM BURIED THEIR, THEIR GRAVES WERE FILLED WITH WATER, ITS A LONG STORY HOW THIS THING WAS INTIMATED TO MUFTI E AZAM OF IRAQ AND THE RULER OF IRAQ OF THAT TIME THOROUGH DREAMS, ANYWAYS THEY DECIDED TO OPEN UP THE GRAVES OF THOSE COMPANIONS AND BEFORE DOING SO THEY HIRED SOME GERMAN COMPANY TO RECORD THIS EVENT(not sure abt this bit), WHEN THEY OPENED THE GRAVES WHAT THEY FOUND THAT COMPANION BODIES WERE STILL IN THERE THERE WERE NO SIGNS OF DECAY, IT WAS LIKE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SLEEPING IN THEIR GRAVES, THERE BODIES WERE PUT IN THE GLASS CASES PPL AROUND THAT REGION FLOCKED TO WITNESS THAT EVENT, SO FINALLY THEY WERE PUT TO REST IN THEIR NEW GRAVES.
Friends its not a very old incident just happened 60 years ago, there must be proper records of this event in iraq.
My reason to state all this is YOU CANT ALWAYS JUDGE RELIGION ON THE BASIS OF SCEINTIFIC RULES.
HAS THE SCIENCE SOLVED TEH MYSTERY OF BERMUDA TIRNGLE??
Yesterdauy i was watcing docemnentary abt. the MOSES’ mericle , that some scientist from america explained TEH PARTING OF THE SEA THROUGH SCIENTIFIC REASONING.
following are some very interesting links for those who take interest in archealogy, as many things have been revealed through this,
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5ORpMTebI&mode=related&search=
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XoYV-vgX-w
TREE PERFORMING RUKU IN SIDNEY:
http://mail.google.com/mail/?realattid=f_f3hwd3rj&attid=0.1&disp=inline&view=att&th=11374c7b518c22c3
This is a recently discovered phenomenon in a forest near Sidney. As you can see, the bottom half of the tree trunk is bowed in such a way that it resembles a person in a posture of Islamic prayer – the ‘Ruku’. Looking closer you can see the ‘hands’ resting on the knees. The most amazing thing is that the ‘man’ is directly facing the Holy Kaaba in Mecca, which is the direction that Muslims face when they are praying!
for science:
aqal ayar hay sau bhais bana laiti hay
ishq baichara na mulla hay, na maulvi na hakeem
People, please…please refrain from badmouthing anyone’s relatives on this forum…thankyou.
u guys r so stupid…I was born in KHI, spent 30 years there, but never heard this BS in my life.
Death to all saints
And I can wave my finger and write any holy word that you can think of in the air – can you see it?
I can even throw a can of paint on the floor and look for some holistic semblance.
Does that make me a medium for divine signs?
Stop looking for Godly signs that do not exist except in your minds and imaginations. He does not need to exhibit his presence and name with the help of trees, leaves, rocks or whatever else.
Puny minds will think puny thoughts.
@Alam
You havent heard this does not means it is BS, it is better if you keep your ears and brain open to some knowledgible discussion.
bull crap!!!!!!!!!!
* Salman Writes:
although i had ignored that line assuming that the author was simply showing off.. LOL..
******* I don’t know what is there to show off?
You know the Daakyaa who delivers mail, he works for the government of Pakistan. Similarly, the railway guards, they work for govt of Pakistan.
And, the hardworking among them should be respected, but most employees of the govt of Pakistan are kaam chores and nikamaas.
As to showing off working for Jinnah or Liaquat Ali Khan, less said the better. First of all, inn dono’n kee gardano’n per laakho’n musalmaanaan-e-hind (and similar number of non-muslims) kaa khoon hae. Second, remember this jerk Sharif-uddin-Pirzada, laywer, doesn’t he claim to have interned for Jinnah (I am not sure). Is that something to be proud of to be associated with such people?
Remember actor Saqi? He was Jinnah’s driver.
Now did he work with Jinnah?
And again, working with Jinnah or Liaquat Ali Khan jinhoo’n nay laakho’n musalmaan marvaa diyae (and for what? this excuse for a country called Pakistan?) is no big deal!
@ Axiomatic -
Tareqat & Shareyat is what defines and clarifies the Quran (ALLAH SWT) & Hadith (Mohammed ~ pbuh), simplyifing the Islam for common people to understand and embrace.
My sumission is about Tareeqat which is core for advent of Islam in sub-continent.
Just like, to understand the true message of Quran and Apply its message in real life HADITH is required defination, Shareeat is applicable in day to day life only with an understanding of Tareeqat.
I did not used word sufism.
Besides personally I believe dragging anyones’ family or throwing personal flames on this blog is IMMORAL.
It seems like most of our learned folks in Pakiland feel closer to science than Religion. Instead of following Faith blindly, they prefer to follow Science in that fashion.
Science, is a by-product of religion. It was those few curious minds who wanted to know logical explanations to every miracle that occurs on this planet and beyond, that developed what we call Science today. Please don’t forget Religion developed Science and will always surpass it in terms of knowledge. Why the shores of our city are protected or somehow always miss the cyclone is still a mystery to Science no permutations and combination in Statistics and probability theories can solve that or predict the cyclone that will hit Karachi eventually but in the meantime agreeing to what the Spiritual side of our religion says is ok as no matter what Science says will eventually change a few years later (as most of you agree) but Religion will stand by those facts till the end.
Science is ever-evolving and ever-changing, as it’s not perfect and never will be. Religion will always stand its ground as it is perfect. The various theories in Science that change/evolve and are finally discraded as these were reasonings that a logical mind needed not the REAL answers to the miracles around us. Religion teaches the real answers and asks us to seek the truth.
Seems like only Mr. Siddiqui gets it here
@ Imran: Thanks for correcting *caught*… I was wondering how many viewers it would take to get one who knew his tenses.
To assert that “God did it” is no more than an admission of ignorance dressed deceitfully as an explanation
@jay, abay aqal kay dushman, when something is cooked at home and there are more than one ladies at home then its usually asked “who cooked today’s food” and its replied “ammi did it or bhabi/sister did it”,depends on who cook at home and one starts cooking. Sometime it’s not asked and taste tells who was the cooker so then such Qs isn’t asked. If someone is psuedo intellectual like you then he wouldn’t believe and would go for some scientific approach like,
-a living object called “Ammi” moved her joints which produced kinetic energy after putting pyaz in pateeli” and when she turned ovan on ,it produced heat energy and then she add Sodium Choloride in pateeli etc etc. If you go for such explaination, your people would say “kia dimagh k dahee banata hay yeh”.
Nobody would care to go for such investigation because your family trust that food was cooked by your mother. She’s the person who’s capable to do that. That would be other debat HOW did she cook the stuff and what she added up in food to make it eatable for others. Same is with Allah. if something happens by nature, Muslims/Bible followers simply say, it was done by God or Allah. Now why did they God and why didn’t they name someone else ? that’s because they KNEW it was done by someone called God,similar to we know that food was cooked by our mothers because our experience told us. Same it with God that it’s our experience which tell us that something happened with God. Now why one doesn’t experience God, then it’s the issue with person only. If someone is color blind and can’t make difference between in colors then it’s not colors fault, the problem lie in that person.
Science reveals where religion conceals.
really? read this verse of Surah Rahman.
He is Lord of the two sunrises and Lord of the two sunsets
It was said 1500 years ago in Quran which was recently(a century ago) proved that sun rises and wests in two different angles in winter and summer.
then it’s in Quran:
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. (Quran 51:47)
kisi ka abba ko bhe ye 2 centuries pahla pata nahi tha k universe is expanding. Your science was DEAD and had no clue about it untill it was proved by Hubble in 1929. The thing which was told 1500 years back!
These are just few examples. There are numerous examples in Quran which were recently discovered.
I doubt whether you have studied science at any level? specially in matric or college level because you always comeup with claims which have no weight at all. What I strong feel now after so many discussion with you that yo have neither studied Quran nor Science. Writing in proper english doesn’t mean you are an intellectual. Even a Gora ganitor can speak english more fluently than our educated souls. Bilawajay ka Dhakkan pana choro aur agar nai pata tu na bola karo, ya kisi se poch lo.
To all the Salmans and Balmas of Pakiland…. it’s people like you who make people like us wonder why so many of our ancestors worked hard for a bunch of thankless ninkumpoops (you won’t find this word in the dictionaries anywhere, but you would know what it means). This kind of thankless nature comes from being brought up in a hosue where there is no PATRIOTISM in the blood (you can find the meaning of this word in the dictionary as I am sure you don’t know what that means).
Instead of being thankful for what you got and try to make it better for the next generation the few black sheep in the then newly-founded country made people believe it was wrong to do so. Sorry to say you are the descendants (I am sure this word is misspelt) of those black sheep.
If it is so bad to be living in Pakistan under the present conditions, please take up a job in THE GOVERNMENT and bring it to a standard not worth laughing about. If you can’t do anything about it at least not make a fool of yourself in public. And if you don’t have the balls…. kindly leave the country.
who came first, the egg or the chicken?
who can best answer that, science or faith?
educate me :))))
@ Imran: Thanks for correcting *caught*… I was wondering how many viewers it would take to get one who knew his tenses
Arifa, about a year or so ago, I, alongwith another reader (original-anon), gained notoriety
on this blog as being overly concerned with spelling and grammar mistakes by some of the authors as well as some of the people leaving comments.
I kept at it for a couple of months but gave up in frustration because the battle seemed insurmountable. It was like lava flowing down the side of a volcano. The deluge of grammar and spelling mistakes just seemed to be endless.
A couple of glaring examples are the correct usage of the words “then” and “than” as well as the words “there” and “their”. I also used to cringe whenever I would read the word “your” used where the word “you’re” should have been used.
But no more…now I visit the blog, read the occasional interesting post and accept the
English language aberrations as a fate accompli.
These concepts are not alien to contemporary mankind. In Pakistan, we are still going through the phase of world knowledge otherwise crossed by the world in the 1980′s.
Come 2007, the world is ACCEPTING spiritual concepts such as that of karma (lingering effects of deeds – what goes round, comes round). No matter what book is shoved down people’s throats, everyday in daily life, people see and feel and experience things which are “inexplicable.”
“Intuition,” once frowned upon by logic-oriented societies a fuzzy-wuzzy concept associated with women and “soft” people, has made a tremendous come-back, and how!
Do we believe that plants “talk?” Not only that the “plants hear” part is already old news – with detailed programming on the matter on Discovery & BBC, but “plants talk” is the fresh news.
Here you go:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/06/070614-plants.html
Perhaps one day we will arrive in the 2000′s Knowledge Land, but currently we are only going through watered down theories from the West, which are already rejected and deemed a failure in the West. “Religion vs. Science” is – ugh! – SUCH a borrowed concept. Cliche, and rather unfashionable.
I wonder how can people proclaim to hold a belief in one hand, and its contradiction in the other? Why quote concepts from the latest read – why not examine the cosmos ourselves for a change?
P.S. Know thy subject!
P.P.S. Interestingly, I have met hundreds of people who feel their lovers and mothers are “with them” from the other part of the world/ afterworld. I’ve especially known people with strong connections to dead mothers through dreams, presences, and what-not. But these very people will deny having any belief in other dead people’s ability to “hear” from the other side.
P.P.P.S. Decode Shakespeare: “All the world’s a stage…”
criminals and drug addicts control all these mentioned mazars and those pirs can’t even cure their diseases and get their own
objectives achieved let alone granting others their prayers… most saints were no doubt very pious persons when they were alive but once they’re dead they have no control over happenings of this world and praying to them instead of Allah is sheer stupidity and shirk and many ignorant people do that not only illiterate but literate as well… a saint who don’t even have power to remove a fly or an insect from his grave how can he grant your wishes..
@original -Faisal: My fault too, I keep forgetting it’s not our mother-tongue just a complex that makes us yearn to speak better, a language that has us shackled for over a millenium.
@original -Faisal: My fault too, I keep forgetting it’s not our mother-tongue just a complex that makes us yearn to speak better, a language that has had us shackled for over a millenium.
@noc: Interesting documentary about Noah(AS)’s arch.
@Jamal Shamshi: I wonder what do you say about Shrine culture? that is considering saints above God? Recently I experienced a ricksha wala who was suffering shrine fobia and shared very interesting thing with me. I got ill and I forgot to blog about it but now I think I should share it publicly. According to him,he left an arzi(Request) to TEEN HATTI WALAY Baba to save Karachi and according to him “aap k bhai k darkhuwast qabool huwi”-He was an interesting character, a very Interesting one I must say who considered saints figure aboev sahabas and Nabi(saw)
@ Salman A. —-
who came first, the egg or the chicken?
who can best answer that, science or faith?
educate me :))))
Posted by: Salman A. at June 29, 2007 10:55 PM
– Salman A. WHO CAME First — You or your…??
- that answers your very own question, – Origin – is what existed before anything, -
yet another dumb post by Unaiza , oh BTW did i tell you all that MY grandparents worked with Quaid-e-Azam and Liaquat Ali khan too and than later saved Pakistan on numerous occasions by volunteering to work in high places in the government for free ?? …well if i did’t than I am telling you now …*grinnnnnnnnn****
cancel my subscription to the resurrection
send my credntials to the house of detention
i got some friends insideeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
well..above lines have nothing to do with nothing..just that i am listening to the lizard king right now.
peace love and rusmalai
I better find out what my grandparents were upto in those days (besides making babies)
@darthvader:
I am already rich in love and peace so will take just rusmalai. Thanks :)
@Arifa:
On your earlier comment on patriotism, KUDOS!!
@Jamal Shamsi:
I wanted to hear an answer in favor of religion which I think I did.
@original-faisal:
thanks for your tips on ingles, i mean english, or should I say English? any way, I will try to remember them all.
AH
one more,
@Balma:
Muslims achieved ONLY few things in the past century, Pakistan being one of them.
Say it loud & clear:
Dil Dil Pakistan
Jaan Jaan Pakistan
What have they done to the earth?
What have they done to our fair sister?
Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her
Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn
And tied her with fences and dragged her down
* Muslims achieved ONLY few things in the past century, Pakistan being one of them.
****** Bhayyaa, mai’n bhee yehee keh keh kar thak gayaa hoo’n. Muslims have very low rate of achievements, and it is no surprise that Pakistan bhee aik ma’arkaa (achievement) lagtaa hae….estandards hee itnay ghaTyaa hai’n!
*Arifa wrote
To all the Salmans and Balmas of Pakiland…. it’s people like you who make people like us wonder why so many of our ancestors worked hard
…stuff deleted….
***** My response
Lady, naam arifa hae, baatai’n bhee aarifo’n vaali karo….what is this patriotism in blood kind of ghair aarifaanah bakvaas?
You almost sound like Budnazir, who thought she knew if people’s blood is good or bad….
Persian night, babe
see the light, babe
Save usssssssssssssssss
jesusssssssssssssssss
save usssssssss
So when the music is over
When the music is over
When the musics over
Turn out the lights
Turn out the lights
Turn out the lights
Well the music is your special friend
Dance on fire as it intends
Music is your only friend
Until the end
@ arifa
Science, is a by-product of religion.
hahaha. who told you this????
i pity COPERNICUS and GALILEO who faced persecution just because Church thought they were heretics.
Some famous scientists were burnt alive due to their progressive thoughts which were against the religion.
BUT AS YOU SAID SCIENCE IS A BY_PRODUCT of religion,then I wonder why western clergy’d been messing with science for centuries?????
I don’t think we need an enemy from outside to finish it. We are already doing it for them. Just a glance at KMB and you can tell this so easily!
Unaiza should be banned from posting ANYTHING!
NOCTURNAL: Dude you gave a link from inside your gmail mailbox! I’ll need your userid and password to see the image and so would all other visitors here at KMB. I don’t think you would want to do that so it’d be best if you could share the pic posted elsewhere or upload it on a free image hosting website (google it and you’ll know what I am talking about)
My gradparents were trying to kill Jinnah and Liaqat, but then they got busy producing my parents
@UNAIZA
it’s ALAKH NAGRI, Mumtaz Mufti’s autobiography second part
and it’s not Karachi, rather Lahore in 1965 war
NOCTURNAL@: There is a difference between hearsay and fact. Unless you provided an authentic source to your Iraqi episode, it will be considered a fiction or worse. Consider:
My understanding is that Iraq, Mesopotamia then, was a British protectorate from the World War I, until after the end of the World War II. It includes the year of 1940, the year of the “miracle”.
The other fact is that Britain and Germany were at war, the World Ward II, from September 1939 to April 1945.
It is impossible for an Iraqi government, falling under the suzerainty of Britain, would rely on the experts from an enemy country, Germany, for documenting the stated “miracle”.
Bodies have to decay with time. If anything can halt the natural phenomenon it will be use of chemicals or any other such technical means, not one religion, not one’s piety.
Sydney Tree: What will you say of millions of trees in the world which are not prostrating? Million, rather billions, of kafir trees and only one pious tree.
@ Balma: Dear mr balma, take it as showing off for u narrow minded guys, big deal huh?
As for clarification to the rest, The authencity of the stories then heard by my grandmother (My grandfather died in mid 1970′s) is based on teh fact that they themselves have participated actively in the freedom struggle and had a social circle which for me atleast is highly respectable/trustworthy.
@UDASS: No man, I have read that book alakh nagri and Ali poor ka aili both its not from that book.
But yes you may be right, as many other writers (other than the one that I read) must have published their thoughts in their books.
Bodies have to decay with time.
Read something from Christian faith if u r reluctant to accept anything from Islamic religion.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/8437/incorrupt.html
Oh tell me where your freedom lies
The streets are fields that never die
Deliver me from reasons why
You’d rather cry, Id rather fly
***** My response
Lady, naam arifa hae, baatai’n bhee aarifo’n vaali karo….what is this patriotism in blood kind of ghair aarifaanah bakvaas?
You almost sound like Budnazir, who thought she knew if people’s blood is good or bad….
@BALMA: Your Chinese is Greek to me :P
@JAY JAY-
If only you could read what i read,
I wrote regarding teh german company,
“i am not sure about this bit”
reason why i wrote this not becuz it was german of persian or whatever but THE FACT IS THERE IS NO VIDEO EVIDENCE HAS EVER APPEARED ON THE MEDIA.
AND AS YOU SAID AS IN 1940S BRITAIN HAD TEH CONTROL OF MESOPOTAMIA THATS WHY ANYTHING THAT OCCURED IN THAT YEAR WAS DUBIOUS SO MY FRIEND INDIAN SUBCONTINENT WAS ALSO IN BRITAIN RULE, IT MEANS ANYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN UK’S RULE OVER SUBCONTINENT WAS DUBIOUS AS WELL.
and here are some pic and clips abt,
TREE PIC:
http://www.anwary-islam.com/a-pic/p-tree1.jpg
THIS CLIP RELASED BY NASA, WHEN THE FIRST MAN-MISSION TO MOON TOOK THE PICTURE OF EARTH FROM THE SPACE, WHAT TEH CAPTURED ON THERI CAMERA IS IN THIS CLIP,
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4e2m-8U3D4s&mode=related&search
and what would you say abt. NOAH’s ark discovery I provided that link before.
Waste of time on KMB. Believe in God and keep walking; change with times but don’t change your values..
@ ABDUL SAMI
great link A SAMI,
I found the documentary of saint Bernadette on you tube, her body is kept in a glass case in France.
LINK to the documentary,
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XvVneF_eD9Y&mode=related&search=
and following is the narration of teh incident occured in IRAQ, BODIES OF PROPHETS(peace be uopn him) were exhumed,
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1865
@Nocturnal: The person who told me Science is a by-product of religion was definitley not the same person who told you Galileo was more informed than Koran ……
Western clergy CREATED their own Christianity and tainted it with lies hence couldn’t keep up with the new discoveries being made that defied their rleigion and brought them no money.. Popes were loosing too much money…..
Our religion just gets proven right everytime a valid theory comes into notice….. need I say more?
MOHAMMAD AKRAM R. — Very impressive. You must be a real scholar, rather a saint. Please keep enlightening us mortals with your dreams and travels to the other world. Thanks for sharing your views.
@Arifa-
ur comment,
The person who told me Science is a by-product of religion was definitley not the same person who told you Galileo was more informed than Koran ……
where did I say that Galileo was more informed than KORAN????
oH! i reckon it’s the same WELL INFORMED person who told you science was a by product of religion.
btw who’s this person??? just curious.11111
@Nocturnal: The best defense is an offense…and you just did that :) *low*
You didn’t say that Galileo was more knowledgeable than Koran… you IMPLIED that by saying: Galileo and Copernicus were persecuted by the Church… We as muslims believe, and are taught that all that needs to be known in this world about EVERY subject matter that you can think of, is right there in the Koran…. what the church does and did to preserve its standing amongst the believers has got nothing to do with Muslims and their beliefs and hence science for us is still a way to decipher all those codes in Koran that would tell us the real secrets of life.
It’s common knowledge that Muslims can find all the answers in their holy book and that’s where I got all my answers.. definitely not from the person who has been telling you STUFF.
I sincerely suggest to everyone one, especially those still residing in the 14th century to read this Sundays letter by Mr. Cowsajee.
Here is the link – http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm
or just pick up yesterdays paper and read about the national Muslim mindset.
Someone mentioned something about the virgin Mary up there. I fink it was Jamal Shamsi who said something along the lines of “Jesus was born to Virgin Mary – Does science acknowledge that ????”
Bhai jaan, the laws in Pakistan don’t acknowledge that either. If Jesus were born in Pakistan abhi, he’d be born in prison. Why? Because, my friend, going by Pakistani laws, pregnancy is “proof” of Zina. Ze Virgin Mary would therefore be serving time in prison for alleged Zina.
@arifa-
ur own words,
It’s common knowledge that Muslims can find all the answers in their holy book and that’s where I got all my answers..
if you’ve got all ur answers from QURAN then cud you help me find an answer to the following question from the QURAN plz,
what causes the wind storm or cyclones???
farhan bhai,
what kind of crack are you smoking these days?
@farhan: Did I fail to mention that I am no scholar of the KORAN? I merely mentioned it’s common knowledge that Muslims look/and should look for all answers in Koran as it has all what you will be looking for…. I haven’t had the URGE to find an answer for Cyclones and storms yet.. Care to look it up yourself? or do you want to wait till I decide to look for it and I can enlighten you then?
@arifa
I am no scholar of the KORAN.
oh! i thought you were, the way you wrote that everything was in QUR’AN made me think so.
some poet wrote a perfect line to describe people like you,
HAIN KWAKIB KUCH, NAZER ATAY HAIN KUCH…..
@Farhan: You are arguing for the sake of argument… the MISRA doesn’t apply to me if you know its meaning at all….
I think I have said it at least thrice that IT’S COMMON KNOWLEDGE… a scholar would know more than common stuff….
@salman
SAME ONE THAT YOU SELL UNDER THE GUISE OF CRIPPLED BEGGAR AT GRUMANDIR.
You are lucky man! your BEGGING BOWL always remain full with LOOSE CHANGE while your pockets with the money of stoners like us ;)
DOUBLE KAMAI,keep it up