Realities and Truth – a talk by Sufi Master Shaykh Fadhlallah Haeri
Realities and Truth, a talk by Sufi Master Shaykh Fadhlallah Haeri is being hosted at The Second Floor
This Thursday 29th of November 2007 At 7. Pm sharp.
Here are the details of the event.
REALITIES AND THE TRUTH
“Whatever exists and is experienceable reflects an aspect of reality. Thus we call the normal wakened state the ‘real’ world. All worldly situations change; all so-called realities are transient and yet have some reference to the absolute unchanging truth.” – Shaykh Fahdlalla Haeri
WHO IS SHAYKH FADHLALLAH HAERI?
Author, teacher and Sufi Master, Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri has recently established the Academy of Self Knowledge (ASK) in South Africa, which offers a unique online course in the science of self-knowledge based on universal truths drawn from a wide source of teachings consonant with Islam.
For almost three decades he has travelled extensively, teaching and sharing his remarkable insights with people from all backgrounds and spiritual traditions.
Shaykh Fadhlalla has visited Pakistan often and has a special regard and love for the people of this part of the world where he has supported many charitable efforts, specifically in community health services and in education.
LEARN ALL ABOUT THE EVENT
Event Co-ordinators: Kurt, Ramla A.
ASK Co-ordinator: Tammy, Rizwane, Muna Bilgrami
Venue host: The Second Floor [T2F] Cafe – a Project of PeaceNiche, an NGO
Fee / Minimum Donation: Anything you like. Please support the PeaceNiche platform for open dialogue and creative expression generously.
Date: Thursday, November 29, 2007
Time: 7:00pm – 8:00pm
Location: The Second Floor [T2F], 6-C, Prime Point Building
Street: Main Khayanban -e-Ittehad Road, Phase 7, DHA
City/Town: Karachi
Phone – T2F: (021)538.9273
ASK:
http://www.askonline.co.za/
Shaykh Fadhlallah’s Books Catalog @ Zahra Publications
http://www.zahrapublications.com/
Image source:
http://www.bonner-design.com/
Credits Ramla A.
Salamalikum
Fake sufis giving fake talk about Islam to fake people in a posh area! This is just too perfect. Sufism as it’s known today and has been known for many centuries is as corrupt an institution as they come.
…course in the science of self-knowledge based on universal truths drawn from a wide source of teachings consonant with Islam.
So, it couldn’t have been just self-knowledge based on Quran and Sunnah! No, it’s through some “universal truths” which happen to be consonant with Islam. Ah, so typical. Allah knows best but I’m almost sure exactly how the talk will go. Sheer stupidity.
What else? Just like fake pir/mureeds make fool out of poor people and villagers these fake but highly polished ‘sufi masters’ make fool out of illiterate “edcuated” rich people…two face of the same coin!
Reading one ayat of Quran with some authentic tafseer is better than wasting your time on this event!
Jamash…why was my comment removed. It was on topic, wasn’t it? No vulgar language, right? No personal attack since mine was the first comment, no? Was it wrong to firmly disagree with this event? Or was it too true and real to be put up here? Let us know.
Well, it was a technical error because of which your comment accidentally got unpublished. It is back there, and sorry about that :)
I am sorry but, I think you are mixing fake Sufis with the real one, and it is true that I strongly disagree with your views… :) but I would suggest you show up at the talk, would be great to have people who would disagree as well.
(: not my league to STEP-IN,
I’d love to be a BETTER & GOOD INSAN 1st then a musalman.
* Fake sufis giving fake talk about Islam to fake people in a posh area!
****
Please use ‘fake’ before posh area too.
It ain’t no posh area. Karachi has no posh areas.
The Ittehad Road and Korangi Road intersection is extremely polluted, has ugly multi-colored buildings and is in the middle of Akhtar Colony, Korangi, and Qayyumabad? Any thing posh about them?
@Ibrahim,
OK … OK! Just shell out Rs. 100/. You don’t have to put up with the talk.
Deal?
@Ibrahim,
“Or was it too true and real to be put up here? Let us know”.
Read the article carefully with your eyes open. “All reality is transient …”.
That is why your post disappeared.
Fee: A minimum donation of Rs 100.
I want to come but don’t wanna pay in front. If I like what I’see see and hear, I will donate more than minimum. Is that possible ?
Salamalikum
Jamash, I read up on him and he’s what I suspected. I mean, on his site he mentions no qualifications. It mentions “spiritual knowledge” without any evidence of what that’s and how he got it. So, there is absolutely no doubt who he is: A corrupt men with no Islamic knolwedge. Such people are too common today.
BTW, the program is between 7:00 and 8:00, right? What’s the time of Isha prayer?
A fake pir says to the villagers, I have konwledge of spiritual beings and things, I see things, I’m close to Allah, seek help through me, but don’t forget to donate!
And, this is exactly what this “sufi master” is doing. Just like a pir, he mumbles to his equally illiterate audience (Islamically) some nonsense and vague pseudo philosophical sentences based on meta physics. But, before he says something please donate a MINIMUM of Rs 100/-. What about the poor on the street who can’t afford it? They are not deserving of this shaykh’s blessings and teachings?! Why do it at some cafe in DHA? Why not some more accessible place for the rest of the population.
He says he has spiritual knowledge but never studied Quran, hadith, fiqh, etc. But, somehow just acquired it (just like a pir). No, wait! He acquired it while working in the West in oil industry and then suddenly “rediscovering” himself! Check his site for his expertise in story telling.
Don’t waste your money and most importantly time on this. Don’t attend this.
The donation is made to T2F, not the speaker- because when T2F’s space is taken by an event or the audience, service is suspended. The donation is a basic courtesy, and it entirely optional.
Those who do not wish or cannot afford to contribute, may not.
Jamash, could you please update the fee info, in time and for the record?
My dear Ibrahim,
I think that you ought to show up and present your challenge publicly. How d you know what you think you know when you don’t even know about the donation? After all, would Islamic mannerism require investigation before accusation?
Since you truly believe what you believe, then in the true tradition of a Muslim, do come and challenge the talk.
@ Ibrahim,
It is the age of Google, so… go deeper.
“He says he has spiritual knowledge but never studied Quran, hadith, fiqh, etc. But, somehow just acquired it (just like a pir).”
Well, Googling a bit more would answer your question:
http://www.nuradeen.com/Reflections/CommentaryOnTheQuran.htm
And here’s the commentary on the first Surah:
http://www.nuradeen.com/Reflections/SuratAlFatiha1.htm
Does your mind accept that a man could comment on something he hasn’t read?
If I suggest that my boss has promoted me three ranks in one go this month, it doesn’t mean that I never applied for a job 10 years ago, made the resume, sat through 5 interview, and hard-worked my way until I was considered eligible for the promotion jump.
Do come to the talk – your questions are worth being addressed.
Wa-Alaikum Assalam
And lastly, the talk has not been arranged by The Shaykh, it is an invitation by Kurt and I for the Shaykh to come and speak at T2F. Why T2F? Because we don’t own a public space of our own, and cannot build one for a day, and know no other cafe which would allow us to occupy its entire space while suspending its food and drinks service.
We understand that there is an issue with T2F being inaccessible to many – well, coming from the Northern point of Karachi, I understand the inconvinience bit. Hopefully the new Gymkhana in North Nazimabad will create a new, comfortable space for public gatherings.
Back to the lectures,
The lectures are delivered “free” and off and on at various houses (which graciously provide space) and universities. Aga Khan University Hospital held Shaykh Haeri’s talk on “Metaphysics and Mental Health” – which was free and for which announcement is made through email lists etc.
—-
Look forward to meet any KMB readers; do identify yourself, please. Thank you.
Ibrahim,
If you wish, write to me at
helppakistan(DOT)net – AT gmail
@jamal shamsi,
You said….I’d love to be a BETTER & GOOD INSAN 1st then a musalman….
what a pathetic brain-washed perception. You have been bom-boozled with the anti-muslim idealogy.
Good to know that you are a SUFI. Makes me feel better.
Ramla, please upload audio/video to silent the doubters and let them decide themselves.
I wished to come but then I could not wakeup at that time.
@ Ali:
They will be shared, insha’Allah. If you’re on Facebook, find the event by the title – we’ve requested guests to share their media there.
**ramla- sorry i couldnt make it, i had a prior family commitment.. mansoor and myself thought it was on tuesday and even showed up that day…**
wait a minute… why should Ramla upload a video/audio clip?
those who are bothered enough to come, will come
and those who wont, wont..
it’s their loss. If people want to sit around and be ignorant, and too set in their ways to not even TRY out something new, then they deserve to rot…
**ramla- sorry i couldnt make it, i had a prior family commitment.. mansoor and myself thought it was on tuesday and even showed up that day…**
wait a minute… why should Ramla upload a video/audio clip?
those who are bothered enough to come, will come
and those who wont, wont..
it’s their loss. If people want to sit around and be ignorant, and too set in their ways to not even TRY out something new, then they deserve to rot…
**ramla- sorry i couldnt make it, i had a prior family commitment.. mansoor and myself thought it was on tuesday and even showed up that day…**
wait a minute… why should Ramla upload a video/audio clip?
those who are bothered enough to come, will come
and those who wont, wont..
it’s their loss. If people want to sit around and be ignorant, and too set in their ways to not even TRY out something new, then they deserve to rot…
Salamalikum
Ramla, the point about money is a side note. 100 rupees is nothing for the audience that was targetted. Forget about the money, and thanks for explaining that the money was for T2F and not for the fake sufi. Although making money like this is certainly corruption what really is appalling is his masquerading like a “shaykh” when he is no more than a fake pir you find in villages.
Let’s try it again: Program was from 7:00 to 8:00 pm, right? When does the Isha azan and then the prayer happen these days in Karachi?
I ask for his qualifications and what you posted is his attempt at doing tafseer of some surahs of the Quran. How does that prove his qualifications and his background? What is insightful and special about what he wrote.
I read his al-Fatiha tafseer. Pick up any other tafseer and tell me what is that he brings to the table with his explanation? Tomorrow if I look up tafseer of five/six different authentic scholars on al-Fatiha and write my “own” tafseer, will you take me as a qualified person?
In my last comment I mentioned “meta physics” without knowing that he actually advertises his program using the exact words or uses them in his speech. Then, you wrote his next program is called “Metaphysics and Mental Health”. Thanks for verifying my suspicions! People who don’t have knowledge will always try to use pseudo philosophy to explain Islam.
The methodology of all prophet including Rasoolullah (saw) was to present the religion in the simplest term, in plain words. Then, we have these people who use metaphysics because they themselves never spent time to learn the authenitc sciences of Islam (uloomul Quran/tafseer, uloomul fiqh, uloomul hadith, tarikh, etc.)
I will encourage you to not invite people who waste others time and distracting them from actually doing their religious obligations.
@ Ibrahim:
Wise is the man who does not meddle in what he does not know of. (If one is to meddle, then at least know. And when you know, don’t deny.)
The way you think, I am afraid, is your problem, not mine. So thank you for your self-contradictory words, but I am not about to act on your advice.
Fi Aman-Allah!
Salamalikum,
Here we go with pseudo-logic again…don’t meddle when not know, meddle then know some, when know don’t deny! Huh??! I tend to explain my objections striaght up mentioning others’ comments/points. Please inform me where I’m contradicting myself. Did your comments answer a single question or objection that I raised?
Looking at your last comment, clearly you’re on shaky grounds and can’t objectively debate this. Then, just answer this question that I’m asking for the third time: Program was from 7:00 to 8:00 pm, right? Now, what’s the time for Isha azan and prayer these days in Karachi? Simple enough question.
Again, people, please don’t go to these sessions, especially the one with ‘metaphysics and mental health’. You will go mental after metaphysics even before the fake sufi reaches ‘mental health’.
Batty, let people put up the videos. Many can’t come all the way to DHA, you know, as said by Ramla. And, of course, we all will be interested to see what the sufi has to say.
Batty and Ali Khan:
Just an update: The event was one of the best attended at T2F, which was a pleasant surprise. Jamash will be updating photos soon.
It is perhaps the first time that a talk on Allah/Islam was given at the premise.
The audience included Muslims and practitioners of other faiths, who were very curious and asked open questions, which Shaykh Fadhlallah answered with his customary humor-laced wisdom.
@ Batty:
You could enjoy these meanwhile:
http://www.askonline.co.za/multimedia.html
ramla- thank u..ill be sure to check it out..
just so we’re clear, im on your side.. :)
u know what a big fan I am of T2f Events..
its like my second home, and i admire them for their broadminded thinking, unlike many a narrow minded bigot in our country
I have been interested in Shaykh Fadhlallah’s work for many years and I have read many of his books. His knowledge of Islam is staggering and humbling. I don’t know why you’ve gotten so upset, Ibrahim, but if you came to his talk you would have seen that he is the very opposite of what you suppose him to be.
I am appreciative of Kurt and Ramla for having organized this event.
@ Batty:
I totally got what you were saying! :) Well, his books will hopefully be available at the cafe soon, should you want to peruse. They proved rather popular at the event.
@ Bina:
Welcome! And thank you for asking the question you asked.
I’ve just bought a set of books – which one is your favorite?
After reading all above i am pretty much on RAMLA’s side. Ibrahim try to adapt a habit of listening to the most absurd of ideas, even if that is from a peer fakeer or whoever. And if your time is precious no one is forcing you here surely but if you are an expert on this man WE WOULD love to hear from you on how you came to the conclusion that he is just another fake peer fakeer.
And spirituality in no way MEANS SOMETHING ONLY RELATED TO ISLAM. Thats for some other fellow.
And as much as i know 100 is nothing compared to what they are offering considering how much we spend (waste) in other habits.
Some mentioned that ISLAM is quite simple then relate it to META PHYSICS & tried to come up with a point that there is no relation ETC.
No one can deny that its simple but thats on HOW TO FOLLOW ISLAM & not on matters related to core of ISLAM or issue related to ALLAH. Its simply like a ALL THE BEINGs, simple to see and know but it goes back to ATOM & ELECTRONs deep inside. Surely majority in this world only know the ABC of this universe but few have got the university degrees ( just an argumentative relation ) in religion. How can you say they have nothing to offer without knowing or reading them.
If ISLAM (or related topics) were so simple every genius writer would be able to make a QURAN of his likening & every great philosopher could make a new religion of his views.
I like Son of Karbala, and the Thoughtful Guides, which I reviewed for Dawn Books and Authors two years ago.
Salamalikum
Once again: Program was from 7:00 to 8:00 pm, right? Now, what’s the time for Isha azan and prayer these days in Karachi? Answer this question.
First, I know these types well…there is no doubt. That’s why I had mentioned metaphysics and boom in Ramla’s next comment there was “Metaphsics and Mental Health” reference.
This debate can go and on, but MB this is my objection. You wrote: spirituality in no way MEANS SOMETHING ONLY RELATED TO ISLAM That’s all. This was no Islam program. This is the type of “spirituality” that can be attained by going to a Hindu jogi as well. So, ask Ramla to stop calling it a “talk on Allah/Islam”. And, this “sufi master” can talk about metaphysics as much as he wants, but should stop masquerading as an Islamically learned shaykh (who writes tafseer!) and stop distracting people from their religious obligations by discussing Islam using metaphysics and vague philosophical concepts that do not help us become better and more practising Muslims.
Let me ask you, what was the purpose of Allah for creating human beings? This has a very simple, half a line answer that Allah and His rasool mention clearly. No deep universal truth or reality/time/space stupidity.
@Batty:
“just so we’re clear, im on your side.. :)
u know what a big fan I am of T2f Events..”
This above quote just sums up the Pakistani mentality. All is personal here and no business.
the thing i always liked about karachi was that here dekhney(browsing)aur kangi(combing)karney kay paisey nahein hotey thay….so this is happening now…..i don’t buy the suspended service logic….can i help..? please please please…..
this public service message is not sponsored by the Royal jamshed town Airforce…..
When i said its not something ONLY RELATED to ISLAM, i never said its NOT RELATED. If Ramla or the GUY who is lecturing think they can relate it to ISLAM and deliver something you or anyone other are no one to argue on that especially without hearing.
The timmings are not my concern.
Salamalikum,
Still, the topics, lessons and methodology are too vague to be considered exclusively ‘Islam’. You can hear the exact things from others, just replace where he says Allah with some other deity.
MB, you did not answer a single question I asked.
Again, why did Allah create human beings for?
And again (this is the fifth time I’m asking): Program was from 7:00 to 8:00 pm, right? Now, what’s the time for Isha azan and prayer these days in Karachi? Saying timings are not your concern is NOT an answer.
Answer my two questions. If you don’t know, just say you don’t know. You don’t have to answer by memory…look it up…ask Shaykh Google! Of course, anyone especially the supporters of this event are invited to answer these questions.
@ Ibrahim:
If you can tell me what normally happens between 7-8 pm at the cafes and shopping malls of Karachi, I can tell you that at that time, the T2F audience, including many non-Muslims and agnostics, were being given a talk about Allah. If that bothers you, then stay anguished and foolish.
Next, if you can tell me the meaning of the word “Meta-”, I can tell you that Allah is “above & beyond Physics”. Even an idiot can tell you that “Meta-physics” translates as “above/beyond Physics” and Muslims use this concept to explain that Allah is larger than physical world.
Secondly, relax a little. People are generally well-read and they know quite a lot about meta-physics. I think you need to buy a few books at the book fair and start studying.
@ MB:
Ah – well! :)
I was hoping to meet Metbloggers at the event – haven’t met you yet.
@ Ibrahim:
Actually this 7-8 pm time was also fake.
You remind me of a person who told me lately, “I want to plant a garlic & a tulsi plant in my garden for its medicinal benefits, but my dad [who belongs to the Jamaat-e-Islami] says it’s Hindu.”
I said, Alhamdulillah, do you believe in Allah?
She said, “Of course.”
I asked, “Do you believe in the Hindu gods – say Krishna, Ganesh – etc.?”
She says no.
I asked, “According to your belief, Allah created all things?”
“Yes.”
“Allah created Tulsi and Garlic?”
“Yes.”
“Allah put medicinal qualities in plants – even in plants which were not in Saudi Arabia at the time of the Prophet peace be upon him?”
“Yes, of course.”
“Then WHY are you not planting plants that ALLAH created and made beneficial!?”
“Oh!”
Come to think of it – this lady and her aalim faazil dad were denying a gift of Allah for the sake of some god (Hindu) that they didn’t believe in. What can one say?
Ibrahim you should stop breathing – yogis do that.
… And make sure you don’t DIE after you stop that hindu/ yogi breathing thing. Kaafirs and Mushriks die. You should do something… anti-meta-physical.
P.S. What’s life after death? Is it… er… physical? Don’t answer if you think it’s too vague or dangerous a concept for the Muslims.
Salamalikum,
I can tell you that at that time, the T2F audience, including many non-Muslims and agnostics, were being given a talk about Allah.
So, here it is people, for all to see: Instead of pryaing Isha namaz on time and in a masjid (for males), they were all listening to this godly talk! Is there a bigger obligation in Islam than praying the obligatory prayers on time? Ajeeb…what is the use of ANY talk this fake sufi was giving that won’t allow people to respond to azan and pray on time!
One more question to go: Why did Allah create human being? Please don’t make me ask this question five times as was the case with the other question!
The objection is not to using metaphysics to tell that Allah is beyond every thing. This is a simple enough concept that is mentioned in Quran and hadith and doesn’t require metaphysics. But, it doesn’t hurt if you explain it using metaphysics as supporting argument.
The objection is to the fact that such talks distracts people from their actual religious obligations and force them to analyze Islam through pseudo-philosophy. I’m an ardent opponent of philosophical concepts to explain or understand Islam.
Good advice. I should be reading all the time, and I do…to put modesty aside for a while. You should do the same instead of listening to such garbage.
The story that you narrated has nothing to do with my objections. Anyone who has little understanding of Islam knows that there is no problem with growing garlic even if Hindus did it unless it signifies a Hindu practice.
When one goes to learn about Islam from a “shaykh” he expects knowledge that is based on Quran and Sunnah, and not some mostly philosophical junk. All of you agree what he is preaching can also be taught by a Hindu jogi, and he mostly uses metaphysical concepts to prove his points. Even Islamic references are brought under the reality/space/time talk.
So, please stop calling it an Islamic event. If he was expalaining the greatness of Allah mostly using Quran and Sunnah, and we know al-Quarn is the best of speeches, then ok. But, to use vague concepts to expalin that Allah is beyond every thing and on top of that to distract people from their religious obligations is a crime.
Also, stop these childish arguments that ‘don’t die’ or ‘don’t breath’. You must have really thought you have hit upon a great idea! SubhanAllah.
If you are talking about life after death, meaning day of Qiyamat and onwards, so that is of course physical. And, NO philosophical concept can prove (or is needed) the day of Qiyamat. It’s only believed by what Allah and His rasool (saw) say will happen. It is not a surprise that most “philosophers” are atheist or have very weak believe in Allah.
And, if you are talking about after death and before Qiyamat, then this is barazkh. And, Quran and hadith authentically tell us that people will be punished here. We know we can be punished! That’s all we care about as Muslims.
What state? Although it doesn’t matter to us, it’s both physical and soul. But, you will say the human body disintegrates! Then, behold the power of Allah, He can do both or whatever He wishes at the same time, alhamdulillah.
Also, you must know (ask your sufi master) that it is not appropriate to indulge in investigating or seeking what Allah has kept unseen from us. If it was important for you as Muslims to know in what state the life will be in barzakh, then Allah would have told us. The aqida/creed (and this is a matter of creed) has been completed for us, and there is no need to seek further “truths”…read the Quran if you don’t believe it.
ALLAH CREATED HUMAN BEING
Because ALLAH DESIRED to BELOVED & CARED FOR, HE WANTED A LOVER OF HIS OWN – MUHAMMED (PBUH)
24/7 not a single moment on globe (and stars beyond) where azan is not called upon – with the name of ALLAH attached is Name of MUHAMMED (PBUH), no other reformer ever had such elevation.
WA-RA FA_AYNA LA-KA ZIK_RAK
ALLAH ADDRESSED MUHAMMED as Ay Mayray Mehboob – My Habeeb,
Angels – they are made to oBey the Order., and nowhere human beings and some defy Human supremacy (Ibless is an example)
INSAN is ASHRAF-UL-MAKHLOQAT :)
means…… superior then any existing object,
for 40 years from Birth in 571 AD (soon after Abraha The christian ethopian king went to destroy the Kabaa) – Mohammed (pbuh) son of Abdalla & Amna, Grand son to Abdal Muttalib was born – who later was widely known and accepted as Sadiq & Ameen in the arab & christian world. places as far as spain & baghdad.
He was the PERFECT OF PERFECTIONIST created by GOD a HUMAN BEING – THE GOD CHOOSE HIM (PBUH) TO BE HIS LAST REFORMER to mankind, MOHAMMED (UR-RASOOL ALLAH) announced the prophecy in 611 AD.
HE (PBUH) is the only reason Allah created human being.
warna keya farishtay kam hain ibeadat aur ataat kay wastay …. ! :)
(wallah alam bis-sawab)
sab apni apni dukan chamkanay mai lagay hain, Azan ho ya jamat, sab apni apni golak mai paisa jama kartay hain peer hon ya faqeer, shaikh ho ya sheika sab kai sath payth laga hai, ghar hai bv bachay hain , kaheen tou kouee tou circus laga kar dunka peetna hai ……
Quarn aur hadith ke dorri, hamain inn jaysay shobday bazon mai uljha kar rakhti hai…
Allah ham sab ko nayk hedayat ata farmaay ameen….. !
@ Ibrahim:
I was merely completing the need for “Hujjat” – and now there is no need. You’re clearly sure of yourself.
Good luck to you!
I don’t know that Tulsi kis kay aangan kee hae, but garlic is actually something like onion that grows in the ground and is actually disliked by shudh Hindus. So, I think all the jamati types (and more and more Pakistanis are becoming jamati types) should grow as many garlics as possible – just to piss Hindus – and Pakistan will have surplus garlics and can earn valuable foreign exchange. Go jamatis – go grow as much beard and garlic as possible, it is savaab kaa kaam…just don’t come within five feets from me after eating or frying it.
Stupids!
baby balma dil chah raha hai app ke garlic mai dobi darhi choom loun, kasam alla pak ki meyan dil garden garden kar deya, Allah tumharay doudh kay dant salamat rakhay ameen.
Ibrahim doesn’t like the META_PHYSICAL LOGIC because it takes away the hope of enjoying 70 virgins in the afterlife…….LOL…he probably hates Mirza Ghalib also for the same reason.
Another point in garlic area: acccording to some hadeeses (hadiths for fanatics), garlic and onions are not supposed to be have by muslims too, before going to mosques… I wonder if jamati father didn’t know about it or hatred for hindus was more significant.
I hope muslims in the subcontinent will follow this hadees and create less stink in their houses and neighborhoods by putting onion and garlic in every thing…esp onions…
Why do we have to have two tons of onion per every pound of meat or poultry?
Orthodoxy is all about regimentation and conformity, whereas, Sufi thought is all about giving love and seeking truth within. I am a non-believer viz a viz god but a great fan of Sufism, if nothing else this offshoot of religion has provided us with great poetry / music and shown us the way to cherish humanity, shun violence and live in peace.
On the flip side in order to be on the safe side, I always have this prayer;
Oh God! If there is a God, save My Soul if I have a soul.
Salamalikum
Jamal Shamsi: The answer to my question can be stretched to many things, and I agree with a few things you said. But, the answer is NOT “…Because ALLAH DESIRED to BELOVED”. No, no. Allah doesn’t need your or mine or His rasool’s love. He is above any desire or need. The answer from Quran and Sunnah is that Allah made human beings to worship Him, without “needing” our worship…Surah al-Zariyat, ayat 56: I have only created jinns and men, that they may worship Me.
He didn’t create men to find out that He is beyond “physics”, which He is per se. But, that is not our purpose/goal. The goal is to worship Him in all its prescribed form without delving into the matter of physical atomism, reality/time or whatever uselessness this type of metaphysics teaches.
So, any fake “sufi master” who doesn’t expound this concept, and instead talks during prayer time, is to be first adviced and then is to be left.
Saima: Before making fun, make sure the punch line is accurate. It’s 72! It is no surprise, unfortunately, that you take your guidance from Ghalib, you swung between atheism and believeing in Allah, and what fake sufis preach today…don’t know whether I should laugh or cry at this thought.
Balma: Everybody is becoming jamati? Come on! Sadly, your paranoia knows no bound!
Thanks Reality_Check for saying that this Sufism has nothing to do with orthodox Islam. It’s newly invented and not from Islam. Hence, my request to stop advertising it under the banner of Allah/Islam.
On the other hand, Reality_Check, any fundamental reason to not believe in Allah other than just “regimentation and conformity”? Surely, that can’t be the main reason.
IBRAHIM – controversy viz a viz 72 sects, so am outta here !
I didn’t want to get into this needless debate, but I just couldn’t stop myself –
My question to all is this: Isn’t arguing needlessly against the very basic tenants of our religion?
* Ibrahim Aleh-salaam said
It’s newly invented and not from Islam.
****
Say what? Sufis are newly invented?
Balam, you’re too kind for finding me wrothy enough to send salam on me. JazakAllahu khairan
Try to get my quote right before objecting to it. I said this Sufism (i.e. fake metaphysics-teaching “sufi master”).
So, now find a new objection. Quickly!
Sorry Hazrat Ibrahim, I am still going to comment on the same line. You said ‘it’, by which I assume you meant sufism, is newly invented.
Care to explain what did you have in mind?
What?! What a retarded comment. So, what do think ‘it’ refers to? Doesn’t it refer to “this Sufism” in the previous sentence?
OK, Hazrat Ibrahim Aleh Salam, I am getting confused. Just answer this: Is Sufism newly invented?
If you want a general response, then define what you mean by “Sufism” because since you are quite ignorant I don’t think you understand what it means? Rest assured, this Sufism is newly invented although the spirit behind is quite old!!
What ever, Ibrahim!
Laugh Ibrahim! Laugh aloud, because you haven’t laughed in centuries…atleast you have a reason now…it is 72 virgins instead of 70!Lucky You!
IBRAHIM thank you for the weird interpretation of my last post. There is indeed an organized effort to exclude Sufi’s from Ghous-al-Azam to Data Gunj Bakhsh from the realm of so called mainstream Islam, and that’s why Talibaan came so hard on the Khanqah’s and killed so many Qawwali lovers. But the irony is nobody remembers an orthodox Mullah or Aalim after his death or even when he moves to a different city, but the Sufi refuses to die, that’s because when you preach love, you also get it and vice versa.
As for my reasons for being a non-believer other than “regimentation and conformity” as preached by religious orthodoxy are tied to what makes me a human. That would be free thinking and consciousness as exhibited by the one who first invented the wheel, or by the one who first said that Earth is round, or by the one who first drew on the cave wall or even the Sufi who urges you to search for the truth within and for that is hanged like Munsoor Hallaj.
SAIMA isn’t the prospect of paradise with seventy virgins to satisfy and the in-house politics associated with it, far more daunting than jumping in burning hell?
No…I must cry. Can’t laugh at this!
Off-shoot of religion in my dictionary would mean non-orthodox.
Ok, I read your reasons, Reality_Check. But, is it possible for somebody to think and still end up believing in Allah and Islam?
The things you listed: invetion of wheel; finding out Earth is round; drawing on cave walls…how would believing in Allah or Islam prevent you from doing these things? Can you explain.
Again, is it possible for you to search within and end up on Islam, no “orthodox” Islam?
IBRAHIM
Yes absolutely right, but the key is everybody should be free to exercise this right and choose whatever belief system he/she may like. On the other hand no body including the state should have the power to impose, and nobody should be decreed for his / her beliefs, religious or non-religious.
As for your other question, this is an eternal debate going on since the first human civilization took root. There have always been litrarlist, who have always tried to impose literal interpretation of religion (whatever religion that might be) and there always been those who have been searching for truth within i.e. the spiritual path ( Anul-Haque God is within and I am God) So Sufi thought is as old as mainstream religious thought. And then there are those who have taken the scientific route to discover the truth about us, about the heavens and the earth. In all history the persons exercising the later options have been cruelly persecuted and labelled as heretics.
Hence the point is every human should have the right to study and choose any of the options available and nobody should be persecuted or for that matter ridiculed for his/her beliefs. Every child should be raised as a free thinker, no indoctrination and no fear. It is as simple as that.
Personally if you are asking me, in my quest I have found more evidence to not believe, and I am well within my right to come to that conclusion, but to the orthodox I’ll be a Murtid and the punishment for that would be you know ………