Here comes Rabiul-Awwal
When will those who claim to be our “leaders” focus their “demands” on actual needs of the hapless people they claim to represent? Take for instance this this recent report from The News. It quotes the the Jamiat Ulema-e-Pakistan (JUP) Karachi chief, Shabbir Abu Talib demanding amongst other things a two day official holiday for the birth (and death) anniversary of the Prophet, peace be upon him.
“The government should officially announce two-day holidays on the 11th and 12th or the 12th and 13th of Rabiul-Awwal” he insisted, whilst also calling for “uninterrupted electricity supply during Rabiul Awwal processions”, a “special cleanliness campaign” (as a part of which limestone should be sprinkled at roadsides, footpaths, grounds and garbage-dumping centres he demanded) and “high standards of law and order in the city” which would ironically include accommodations for crowds to proceed in processions without any barriers and prior permissions.
Even keeping aside the irony of his demand of a “high standard of law and order” which gives specific people part of the Rabiul Awwal festivities (although some now border on being gimmicks then festivities) the honor of being above the law, I cannot help but feel absolutely furious at seeing such reports.
Does Mr. Shabbir Abu Talib realise that the academic year has shrunk down to a mere 140 days because of a plethora of vacations, gazetted holidays, exam leaves, weekends, and unscheduled closures? Does he realise that several parts of the city are facing load shedding for as many as thee times a day (so much so that in some parts the total number of hours where power is cut of exceeds the total number of hours where you do get power!)?
Yet still there is the “demand” that there ought to be not one but two official holidays, who cares if this further compromises on on already feeble educational set up? “Uninterrupted power supply” for almighty processions and lighting up of mosques for the entire week approaching 12th Rabiul-Awwal are also entirely necessary despite the acute shortage of power the city faces.
What’s most disturbing is this we do this year after year in the name of our love for the Prophet, peace be upon him. I’d not want to go into a specific debate about the permissibility or otherwise of this event from a purely religious perspective, but I do understand that whatever disagreements their are amongst scholars regarding mawlid celebrations are not about the event it self, but about related “excessiveness”.
Why does our love for the blessed Prophet peace be upon him never extend beyond the festivities of attending processions and milads? Why is it restricted merely to these displays twice a year instead of a more all encompassing incorporation of his sunnah and ways of life into our every day life? Why don’t we ask our selves if the Prophet would have approved of such questionable use of already meager state resources in the name of celebrating his birthday? I’m sure there are better ways in which we can celebrate the life of the beloved Prophet.
Post script: It seems the government has accepted these demands, the Associated Press of Pakistan reports that the Governor of Sindh, Dr. Ishratul Ibad Khan, has announced holidays throughout the Province on 11th of Rabiul Awwal and 12th of Rabiul Awwal, corresponding to Thursday, the 20th and Friday the 21st of March respectively! There you go, two more days taken of the academic calender, just like that.
Image credit: Illuminated pedestrian bridge by Makphoto
* Zainub Radvi writes:
mawlid
*****
Dear Zainub,
Can you translate this word (is it Hebrew?) into Urdu or English?
For the umpteenth time, my surname is spelled Razvi, not Radvi. If you do not stop misspelling it for whatever illogical reasoning you give, I will not think twice before editing it for a correction this comment onwards.
Also, for your enlightenment, mawlid is an English word:
why not cut Iqbal Day, Jinnah Day, Labour Day, Defense Day holidays???? what so fuss?
Why your rant for academic year is targeted toward a specific Religious event?
Oh boy, yahan to meray say bhee zyaadah ulloo kay charghae baithay huay hai’n.
Abdul dude, Zainab has a point. Why two days off? why not one? this is how we have given in to these idiot Mullahs.
Also, Abdul, if you are one of the Mullahs, can you find out for me how many days off you get for Eid-Milad-un-Nabi in
1) Arabia (sometimes people refer to it as Saudi Arabia)
2) Kuwait
3) Algeria
4) Iran
Waiting for your response.
Dear Zainub,
Thank you for providing the reference. I guess Mawlid is as much an English word as Eid or Paksitan or Balma are. (Balma actually is a French word…a city in France)
Though lot of people love to call me Balma this or Balma that on KMB thinking it is some romantic word from Urdu;-)
Mawlid, I honestly thought was a Hebrew word. NOT! ;-)
You will agree that my Arabic is not total zero, it being the first language that I learned to read. This is also the reason I believe your name is Zainub Radvi, not Razvi. But who am I telling this?…same Zainub who was telling everyone to pronounce all the zuaads in Urdu words as Duaads ;-)
Hate to be personal, I thought you wanted to be a dentist? Why the change of heart? Just curious, though I love history…..
This is so pathetic, its sad. The economy is tanking, inflation is rising, crime is up, and rights are gone; and the only thing that this idiot, Shabbir Abu Talib, and his party can think of is more days off.
Just shut the bloody Pakistan the whole year. No one works during weekdays anyway.
Everyday has been made by the Allah Almighty, who can’t seem to get anything right by the way, so why not celebrate/observe all days as holidays.
yaar we dont need any single day off as this is not the birthdate of Nabi(SAW). Death is confirmed on this date but birth is said to be on 8th or 9th of Rabi-ul-awwal.
This a ridiculous demand from shabbir. Most of the times in khi, we are off from work already, these days. Due to electricity and strikes. Perhaps Shabbair wants to celebrate his "Eid-e-Ghadeer".
Suhagan baney ga shabbir us din .. lol
@blama.. i wonder if @kami and @jayjay were you as well, at islamabad metblogs? from very begining i am thinking like that.
Dont u have any other thing to do in this life or are u a paid worker?
in our govt,. plenty of jahil persons are there. they will accept such requests very very easily. Karachi doesnt have power to luight all the time and those idiots has put lights onn, at places like tariq road etc etc.
Dosron ko takleef daitey hain and they call their seleves Ashiq-e-Rasool.
cheapsters
Zainub
"but I do understand that whatever disagreements their are amongst scholars regarding mawlid celebrations are not about the event it self, but about related “excessiveness"
No, this is not the reason for ikhtilaaf even though excessiveness (israaf) is something to be avoided. The permissibility of the event itself is questioned. Shabbir Abu Talib is completely wrong to demand these things. This is a bidah. InshaAllah, remember one of the principles of this deen: Every act of worship must have an authentic daleel (evidence) in the book of Allah and the sunnah of His prophet (saw). Otherwise, it’s to be rejected. For Muslims, there are only two Eid (celebrations): Eidul fitr and Eidul Adhha. No birthdays (for anybody), no national day, no mother day, no father day, no this day no that day!
A positive posts but useless comments.
I think, each individual should consider his/her responsibility in society. A society is nothing except collection of individuals. I was expecting an appeal from religious parties for people to save electricity in such crucial power crisis.
I don’t want to go in religious debate but all our religious parties says Pakistan is an important state for Muslim Ummah! so if they don’t understand problems related to general public in Pakistan … then ?
I think we should send all molvis to Denmark for a big Rabi Uwwal rally. This will bridge the gap b/w Islam and West, no?
look who iz here,an atheist who publicly glorifies Killers and Mass murderers
i think we cannot afford another holiday specially in this city, and our Ulama should also consider the economic and social condition of state be making such demands, apart from the debate that it is bidah or not, but dudes we dont have electricity please be easy on electric decorations and go for alternatives, this way we may not be increasing further problems for our fellow citizen as they are already going through allot
may be any of you saw this, but on my way back to home last night from shahrae faisal just below karsaz flyover they out up a greet light and it a big green light bulb for few seconds before taking left turn, i was confused if it was some kind of new traffic signal that was installed because color, hight and size was pretty much like a traffic signal
In my opinion we shud have all the year holiday, as there are about 1,24000 messenger of allah, and more or less every day is birthday of any prophet!!
Islam doesnot give importance to birth or death of any one,
Sahaba (R.AW.) love PROPHET Muhammad (Peace be Up On Him) more than us, they have never ever celeberated the birthday. If birthday of our beloved PROPHET Muhammad (Peace Be Up On Him) is of so much importance then our islamic calender would be starting from 12 Rabiul Awal, like wise of Christians, Instead ours starting from Hijrat of Prophet (P.B.U.H.).
I m not in Karachi for last 2 years but laterly what i have observed that all the lightening done on street was connected through "Kundas" (Illegal Connection) this should not be done, if any wants to do "Charagan" he should do with his own connection!!
i don’t want to sound offensive to any one (except for MQM offcourse) but lately these hari pagri/barelvi n shia folks are in direct comptition with each other,i don’t mind them practicing their religion as long as they don’t make the lives of rest of citizen miserable(closure of roads for processions/milads/muharram/chelum), since last few years compition have intensified and barelvi folks also wanted to have 2 public holidays coz if shias can have 2(9th n 10th muharram) why should’nt they.. Shias also are extra active these days in Rabiul Awal as against previous years coz of direct compition..
Prophet Muhammed (Peace be Up On Him) never asked his follower to celebrate his birthday/muharram/majlis/milad/chelum and make lives of other miserable like they do here in pakistan
*competition*
we talk about Tawheen e Risalat a lot now days. Isn’t it Tawheen e Risalat to have Jahsn e Viladat decors done with stolen electricity? How would Prophet(PBUH) feel about it? And yes I agree with the comments above that there are no accounts of Birth Celebrations of Prophet (PBUH) during His time, and never did He aske followers to celebrate his birth.
M A jinnah road from numaish chowrangi onwards is of great significance for both these sects,they love blocking and encroaching around that roundabout and both of them try to outdo each other.
its all innovation (Bid’at) and each year they invent some thing new n appealing to attract more followers..
i dunno how they in karbala and Saudi arabia survive without this religiously significant M A Jinnah road
I have one comment, one anecdote and one joke to offer in this regard.
Comment: I am an agnostic but still say the following prayer regularly: Oh, God! Save me from your followers.
Anecdote: When Allama Iqbal went to turkey he offered his prayers in a famous mosque. Once he was done he was asked the reason for saying such long prayers. He replied to the effect: We have given the running of our affairs to tohers. So we have all the time in the world to pray to our heart’s content.
Joke: A sikh coverted to Islam. After some time somebody asked him how did he find his new religion. He said: The religion is good but it is Balian Da Kam ay (it is for people having lot of time at their disposal)
I appeal to all commentators that kindly consider religious topics as sensitive issues.
I strongly condemn the jokes posted in comments of this post.
hats off Balma jee…..!
@doctor….no bidat here not at all ….the same quorma biryani,zarda and kheer……al hamdo lil lah…..
Yes, iunknown, I am kami and jayjay and everyone else who gives you a tough time:-)
kahan kahan say aa jaatay hain:-)
D* and W*,
thanks for writing Bidat as Bidat, and not as Bidah, because writing Bidat as Bidah will be a Bidat in Urdu.
Also, we don’t have to judge each and every holiday based on religion. There are social and economic and fun reasons. For example, majlisis and milads could be considered a social gathering with a bit of religious touch. No biggee. Esp, when it allows men and women to get to see each other and talk to each other. In a country like Pakistan, every interaction between men and women has to be encouraged. I do think asking for two or three days off for Milad-un-nabi is ridiculous, but saying that it is bidah (Ibrahim’s Arabic switch is on 24 hours) so don’t celeberate it -it is too extreme…only suits wahabis.
btw, no one answered how many days people get off in Saudi ARabia and other Muslim countries for 12th RAbiu-ul-aval…I guess zero days in Saudi Arabia. They are by far the most extremist of Muslim countries, and may be then we have Afghanistan and Iran. People in Pakistan are trying hard to screw it up too, but lets see.
I am reading a biography of Muhamad Ibn-al-wahab these days, and I think just like every person, he did have some good things to say….but, this whole wahabi movement is bit too much. Not suitable for the temperament of us desis.
Also, public jalsas and rallies should be banned on roads in Pakistan. oh, on the other hand, if we but breaks on this production of babies like pigs and rats in Pakistan, hopefully there won’t be millions of unemployed people to gather for all these jalsaas and julooses….
Two / three child policy for next thirty years, and ban on cousin marriages in Pakistan is one way to solve Pakistan’s perpetual problems.
Well said, doctor. Shias and Bralwis are one and the same really. Their ideologies are based on nothing but celebrations and shirk and moving themselves as far away from Quran and Sunnah as possible.
Do the Muslim admins of this site have no shame? The kufr of Kabirdas, balma, et el. is well known, but for somebody to say "Muhamad ibn al-wahab" is completely objectionable. We all know the childish immaturity of balma so I don’t think this is a typo. May Allah destroy you balma the murtid in this world and in the hereafter, and may He allow us to know what happened to you so that we learn from it. May Allah give you the most painful of punishments in this world before you die and reach the depths of hell, ameen….this comes truly from the depths of my heart.
@Ibrahim, well said, afterall cursing is the hallmark of Wahabis. I am sure it will gurantee your easy sailing on the pul-e-sirat. Keep cursing to show your religious credentials. Unless your Al-Lah is real, I am sure Balma will be safe.
@ Sceptic & Ibrahim
This is not the right time to fight with each other, at the moment enemies of Islam really want that Muslims should fight with each other and call each other Kafir and blast their mosques, own people and dont fight against them.
Today the war is against Islam not Wahabis or Barailvis or Deobandis.
America hits people in Afganistan without considering that this is Wahabi or Barailvi, so please dont fight with each other. Join hands to fight against enemies of Islam.
I do second with doctor that barelvis fundementalist are in competition with Shias for last few years.
A post which I couldn’t publish due to work is published now. My experience about this hulla gulla in name of Rabiul Awwal is no different than yours.
mqpasta says: I appeal to all commentators that kindly consider religious topics as sensitive issues. I strongly condemn the jokes posted in comments of this post.
I say: You obviously are pointing at me. This particular joke was not to ridicule or disparage the religion. It was to highlight a certain aspect of the religion. I could have said the samething as a simple statement like: Islam is a good religion but it takes a lot of time to practice it. Now surely you would not have condemned this statement. It is my opinion which I consider my right to express if I so desire. So what is the difference if the same opinion has been expressed in a light hearted manner. Anyway if you have been hurt by this innocous joke I am sorry. The idea was not to hurt anybodys feelings. However I stand by my staement that to practice Islam is too time consuming. If you disagree you may feel free to rebut it. It may be pertinent to mention here why is it so that our prayers are much more elaborate and long compared to the prayers of Saudis.
ibrahim:
Sir,your post did not come as a surpriz. I was waiting for it from some quarter. I would have been surprised if it had not come. As far your prayer is concerned for your satisfaction I will say AMEEN SAM AMEEN to it. You are entitled to your prayer as much as I am to mine which is : Oh, God save me from your followers.
However I stand by my staement that to practice Islam is too time consuming
Daas sahab I don’t know what do you mean by that but let me tell you it’s not right. Following rituals only is not Islam. If a Muslim remove stones and other obstacles on road so that other don’t get hurt is an example of practicing Islam. If a son or daughter gives a smile to his/her parents then it’s called practicing Islam. There are many examples but these two are enough to tell you that how easy Islam is that we often practice is unintentially and unknowingly.
@Daas sb:In short, Islam taught us about "Philantrophy" in ancient times when rest of the world didn’t even know about it. That’s other thing we don’t know about it since we have decided that we would copy what others do. As it’s said in Urdu, "Kawa chala hass ki chal aur apni bhe bhool gaya"
Adnan Siddiqi:
Sir, thanks for drawing my attention to the practices which constitute Islam. If it is so and I am sure it is then I consider myself qualified to call myself a Muslim and a good Muslim on top of that. By the same token I also consider that there are a large number of good Muslims in the west who though are not labelled so. They go by their usual label of Christian or whatever but Muslim. According to your criteria then Mother Terresa was a Muslim also and also those who came to help us after the earthquake.
Your answer may well be in affirmative but the answer of our Ulma e Karam is in negative. Now how can I go by your opinion and not heed to the decrees of our Ulma AND KARAM with long beautiful coloured beareds and sticking out stomachs sitting in their Hujras pondering over such matters while obcessed with sex.
So do you see now what I meant when I said the practice of Islam is time consuming. I indeed meant the rituals of Islam.
As far as philonthropy is concerned I agree with you 200% as our commando president (being ignorant of maths beside many other things) would say. But what makes you think we don’t know about it? We very much do. We appreciate its significance and are proud of it.
I hope Mr. or Maulana Ibrahim whatever he is also sees this post and further condemns me because I am convinced that condemnation by a Mulla or a Fatwa of Kufr will confirm that whatever I am saying must be something sensible or something that is logical and stands to reason. Without such condemnation I may remain in doubt:-)
So it seems the rituals are critical and are the criteria to determine who is Muslim and who is not a Muslim. So do you see now what I meant when I said Islam is a good religion but to pracice it is time consuming
@Daas sb,you missed the entire point. If you notice, I wrote:
If a Muslim remove stones and other obstacle
that is, if a Muslim does it, he practices Islam, if some other person do, still he would get reward but he’s not practicing "Islam" itself because Islam’s basic is to accept God as as our creator and Prophet Muhammad(saw) as Messenger.
it’s just like the difference between me a commenter here and authors of this blog. Authors of this blog are "authors" because they have been given status of "authorship" because they followed some rules mentioned by metroblog which I don’t meet anyway. Authors of this site can also comment on each other posts but it doesn’t mean they will always make better comments than those who have only be given status of making comments. In short, making comments for them is a subset of previlage they have been given while for me, comments is the only way to interact with others. Hope you got my point.
Hope you got my point.
sceptic: @Ibrahim, well said, afterall cursing is the hallmark of Wahabis.
You got it wrong, it’s the other way around. It’s part of Shia’s emaan to curse out sahabah, and for Bralwis to curse anybody that’s not Bralwi EXCEPT Shia: yay Wahabi Kuttay, yay Deobandi Kuttay, yay Tablighi Kuttay, yay Jamati Kuttay….we all know this cursing all too well.
And, I made duaa after reading what Balma (la’anatullahi alyhim) had to say and what he had been saying for past many many months. This is not the first time he has said things like this. And, I finally had had it. I ignore 99% of what he and his ilk have to say. So, imagine what else I must have missed. Of course, you won’t understand because only Muslims will realize the hideousness of Balma’s words. Not only did he say what I highlighted in my previous comment but he also called somebody named Abdul Sami Abdul Dude. And, this is just the iceberg of that murtid’s kufr.
Planner: Read the comments again. Sceptic is not a Muslim so this is not a debate between Muslims. Bralwis, who espouse shirk, only do celebrations, halwa bhanda and gadda nashini so they don’t mention them in the same breath as Deobandis, Tablighis or Wahabis.
Kabirdas, since you are not a Muslim you won’t understand much why I said what I said and what Adnan is saying. Try to find out about Islam before talking.
Lastly, I want to clarify that when I say Bralwis I’m not talking about those who don’t do shirk but still call themselves Bralwis. I’m talking about their figure heads and those from Bralwis who actually follow it and not those who just merely associate themselves with Bralwis without doing grave worshipping, saint/peer/faqir worshipping, and other types of shirk.
And, this is should be the end of my participation on this topic.
@Ibrahim, Thank you for confirming your hatred for anyone who does not follow your narrow and exclusive version of Islam, ie, Wahhabism. The only person seen at this forum cursing other sects of Islam (in writing) is none other than you, despite your belated attempts to throw blame on others.
Why I am not surprised at your attempt to ridicule other sects and their practices? Because it is the hallmark of Wahhabis and Takfiris to be self-righteous and pompous about their version of Islam. They believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Well, for one, majority of human kind and even Muslims does not believe in puritanical Wahhabism. Your ilk believes that the majority is wrong and the highly queer minority is righteous. Keep living in a fool’s paradise (pun intended).
@Siddiqi, I see your concept of Islam being practiced by Muslims on the streets of Pakistan daily. Mobs go out daily to remove stones from streets, smile at anyone they come across and demonstrate acts of philanthropy left, right and centre.
Well, theory is far from reality. If you care to look around: Stones are only meant to be pelted at others; bombs and bullets are meant for others, not smiles, philanthropy stays home.
Where would you place the practice of killing creatures of Al-Lah — fellow humans — in the name of none other than Almighty Al-Lah through suicide bombings as a practice of Islam by Muslims? Islam to the world is what people hear, see and read of daily news out of Pakistan.
@balma: who said u did give me tough time?
it was just ur lame comments and u.
doctor has mentiond some good points abt bralvis.
lol @ M.A. Jinnah road in KSA
" Islam to the world is what people hear, see and read of daily news out of Pakistan."
is that the only islamic country?
and just today in the land de’pure’ JUI’s Karachi Chapters Chief – demanded a 3 days holiday for Rabi-ul-Awal – Holy Prophet(s) s.a.w – would have asked to chop the heads of such people.
Dear Ibrahim aleh-us-salaam,
Why did you get so angry? I am little bit confused.
Just because I wrote that I have been reading biography of Muhammad ibn-al-wahab? Wasn’t this the guy’s name? I will double check his name today…totally confused I am… In fact, I even said that the guy has some good things to his credit….and, I believe, he has less baloney to deal with than what other Muslims (or sects) these days believe…. of coruse as long as his followers (Wahabis) don’t take control of a govt and force their interpretation on everyone else…
Please help me understand where did I push your wrong button that made me deserving of your bud-duaas ? ;-)
I totally agree with the author…being a Nursery Teacher…This year has been the most disturbed one so far….kids are coming to school everyday as if its their FIRST Day of school….because of so many useless gaps…and so much more is coming over…I Wish they would make alternate Sundays working too!
barristerakc:
You say: Holy Prophet(s) s.a.w – would have asked to chop the heads of such people.
I say: Never he would have said such a thing. Please read about him and you would know what kind of person he was. He did not even chop the head of the person who chewed the liver of his uncle killed in a war. He would have forgiven such people saying they know not what they are saying.
iunknown:
You say:" Islam to the world is what people hear, see and read of daily news out of Pakistan."
I say: Well said. I like that. And then we say they are prejudiced.
Sceptic:
You say: @Siddiqi, I see your concept of Islam being practiced by Muslims on the streets of Pakistan daily. Mobs go out daily to remove stones from streets, smile at anyone they come across and demonstrate acts of philanthropy left, right and centre.
I say: Well said. You forgot to mention our devotion to cleanliness being NISAF IMAN. You probobaly did so because Mr. Siddiqui did not mention it. And he did not mention it probobaly for fear of becoming vulnerable.
ibrahim:
You say: Kabirdas, since you are not a Muslim you won’t understand much why I said what I said and what Adnan is saying. Try to find out about Islam before talking.
I say: For some odd reason I have come to like you. May be it is because I see you being hounded by some whom you may call Murtids for defending what you call Islam. Now to put the record straight I may as well tell you that I am a Muslim by virtue of the fact that I was borne in a Muslim family and my passport says so also. As far as reading about Islam is concerned I will not cite the name and number of books that I have read since it will sound boastful. I have read Koran and its Tafseer (English translation)many times by various translators. At the same time I have also read about all other major religions of the world and history and philosphy of religion.
You may have thought I was not a Muslim because of my USER ID being Kabir Das. Well, you may or may not know who was Kabir Das. He was a mystique poet of India who was famous for his DOHAs (couplets) lamenting about the sad state of this world. By the way when he died there was a dispute between the Muslims and Hindus about the mode of his burial. Muslim considered him a Muslim and Hindus considered him a Hindu. And such was his name; Kabir Das. Kabir an Arabic word and Das a Sansakrit word. How do you like that. If you want to know more about him just go google. But I am sure you won’t. You wouldn’t like to know about a person whose religosity was indeterminable. He was above the prjudices of religions.
You may be right to advise me to read about Islam before talking if by this you mean read about various sects of Islam. I know very little about Bralivis, Deobandis and Wahabi etc. I have no time to read about them. Sorry about that. I don’t think I will be missing much in life by knowing about their prjudices.
GRR!
Boy am i angry !!!!
one word for those people who had put up lightings !!
A**H*LES, there is already huge shortage of eletricity in Karachi, and these people are busy putting up 1000 watt bulbs and tube lights numbering to thousands just to decorate !!! Damn it ! due to this the load shedding increased from 6 hours to 120 hours today !!!! But these illeterates and PArhay likhay jahils think thjat they will get sawab by doing this!
Bloody ST people setup a reception at gurumander with four skylights and i think 5-10 SP-4 speakers !! thinking they will get sawab for this!!!!
Stupid peoples !! Jahalat hay or kuch nahi !
Instead of using this event to promote peace and organizing seminars for non muslims and muslims about the seerat-e- NAbi ! people are busy decorating streets and listening to Naats on full scale !!
Dard-de Dil kay wastay paida kia insaan ko !
warna Ta-at kay liay kam nahi thay garobian
We are following the footsteps of Christians !!!
Instead of promoting Islam as the religion of Muhammad SAW , we are turning it into religion about Muhammad Saw, (just like the christians did )
People are rooting in home with lack of electricity !! but this is more important to us !!!
I see your concept of Islam being practiced by Muslims on the streets of Pakistan daily. Mobs go out daily to remove stones from streets, smile at anyone they come across and demonstrate acts of philanthropy left, right and centre.
now this is lame. If somone else IS NOT doing right then i should not be responsible for this I can also pass such childish remarks to make fail attempt to justify my own thoughts.
Your statement remind me someone who blamed a school in Karachi just because few students of that student had been failing for years.
I see your concept of Islam
achay bachay wo hotay hain jo kisi baat ka pata na ho tu dosro se pochta hain. My friend this is NOT my concept. What I said was mentioned in Hadith books rather my words.
Bravo my friend. I must salute your school of thought.
Bloody ST people setup a reception
yes with various models of Ka’aba and masjid Nabvi on roads. Who knows they might be doing its tawaf as well?
Adnan, I second u.
Just went through your article. I have previously complimented you for quite a few of your articles. I’ll make an exception to this one. I find it out-right racist and, therefore, am sending you this mail since you are the last person of whom I would have expected such an article.
Here’s my beef. If you had articulated an academic perspective with regards the jurisprudential permissibility of celebrating millaad, that is one thing. You explicitly state that you aren’t doing so. You simply go about dismissing the festival because you don’t think it is such a big deal, and certainly not worth enough missing out on a couple of biology lessons. You question the logic behind lighting up mosques and having processions, when plainly speaking it isn’t any of your business. If the sect that celebrates milaad feels that the practices are significant enough, who are you to dispute that? This falls smack into the category of ‘enlightened moderates’ creating a ruckus over eid-ul-azha professing that environmental concerns should trump ritualistic slaughter (some of it goes like this: aap ghariboon ko piasay dey dain to ziyaada faaida ho ga). The thing is that a person dismissing a people’s religious festival based on on his/her personal utilitarianism takes some gall. This is going on a slippery slope: do you go about terminating holidays for jumma, easter, eil-ul-azha, lailat-ul-qadar etc. to boost up your academic calendar? Would you be willing to extend your dislike for "excessiveness" to the excessive meat slaughter in Eid, or advocate abandoning maghrib and isha in congregation since we want to keep mosque electricity bills low, or ban in-house speakers and sound systems in mosques since they consume electricity and weren’t there during the Prophet’s times? The demands for a high state of law and order are not ironical at all. Given the large enough numbers that turn out for these events it is the responsibility of the the government to take extra facilitative measures. The guy’s request for processions to proceed with explicit permission is simply asking for the default procedural mechanisms to be waived in a specific scenario. It is pretty much that same thing as an appeal for city parking rules to not apply during friday and eid prayer’ to facilitate people in the larger public interest. Far from being above the law, it is a commonly adopted best-practice.
You then go on to imply that in celebrating their festival like these people do, their "love for the blessed Prophet peace be upon him never extends beyond the festivities of attending processions and milaads?". I especially like the rhetorical question:"Why is it restricted merely to these displays twice a year instead of a more all encompassing incorporation of his sunnah and ways of life into our every day life?". I can’t help wondering, there goes the rationale of marking any day for religious celebration down the drain.
The point is that contrary to your assertion, the difference op opinion amidst ulema/sects on this issue is not rooted in the "excessiveness" factor but on the permissibility of the practice of celebrating the Prophet’s birthday. You are certainly entitled to state a religious opinion and defend it. You can criticize the soundness of an argument another brings to defend his religious opinion. But here you simple go about dismissing their religious practice on utilitarian grounds. What is worse is that most other people in your comments section follow suit and go about disparaging the barelwi sect. I’m as against the barelwi sect as I can be. So what do I care? The principle on which you disparage someone. the next thing I know someone will be making the same loose arguments grounded in personal utilitarianism and would be criticizing my religious practice saying that muslims ought travel for Hajj and instead spend their money on charity.
This falls smack into the category of ‘enlightened moderates’ creating a ruckus over eid-ul-azha professing that environmental concerns should trump ritualistic slaughter (
Comparing a compulsory Prayer with Lightining or Milad just amaze me but then people do seek justification to fulfill their own fantasies with in religion.
Can you refer where in Quran or Hadith it was mentioned that Muslims should offer Milad? WHich companion of MUhammad(SAW) ordered for lightening like Shabir Abu Talib? Please don’t include your own "hobbies" with in religion and pollute it.
You question the logic behind lighting up mosques and having processions, when plainly speaking it isn’t any of your business.
Why not? the source of ligtening in Karachi is nothing but illegal connections(Kunda) and due to them citizens like author and us are not getting proper electricity. Plus KESC just increased .46 Rupees/unit. So definately it’s our business
[i]You question the logic behind lighting up mosques and having processions, when plainly speaking it isn’t any of your business[/i]
1) as adnan mentioned source of 90% of these lights are kundas! the bill of which the common residents end up paying,
2) due to this we had to bear extra 6 hours load shedding yesterday !! (6+ 6=12 hours of load shedding,!)
now you tell ! if this is my business or not !!
yes with various models of Ka’aba and masjid Nabvi on roads. Who knows they might be doing its tawaf as well?
dont know about the tawwaf ! but I have definitely seen people making dua while facing it, as if it was real,
@sraz
offcourse barelwi/Shia folks should be free to practice their religion BUT not at the expense of others,you can’t defend stealing of electricity from the grid, neither can you defend blocking/encroaching of roads during working hours,neither can you defend using of loudspeakers and PA systems with full volume all day long and at night as well (they’ll just keep a cd/cassette player running all night long) , neither can you defend their innovations and new things that they INVENT each year just to outdo each other all in the name of love for Prophet Muhammed (Peace be Up On Him)
***** Correction:
Muhammad ibn-al-wahab is wrong. It is actually Muhammad ibn-Abdul Wahab.
Still, I don’t know what pissed Ibrahim aleh salam so much that he started ooling-fooling.
I think every one has to be enlightened and moderate these days in Paksitan:-)
I mean if hindus can have holy, and Christians can celeberate Easter, why can’t some Muslim celeberate Milad-un-nabi. Who are these Jamat-e-Islami types and Wahabi fanatics to tell every Muslim, what is wrong and what is right…. On the other hand, why the fuck these milad types can’t keep their celebrations within enclosed walls. Why have these mile long processsions. Our people already don’t have any civic sense…and when you get millions of them out on streets it plays havoc with the city. All these mass celebrations on streets should be banned.
Also, 12th Rabiul aval is also the day of Muhammad’s death. What are you guys really celebrating?
I mean if hindus can have holy, and Christians can celeberate Easter, why can’t some Muslim celeberate Milad-un-nabi.
Hindus and Christian s are free to modify their religion , and their religion’ present state has come through a lot of alteration,
While in Islam this is a Bidaah, You are not allowed to induct any practice in the name of Islam,
and our ST people have done nuthing but Biddah !
By the way dont we have two Eids enough for the celebrations?!?
Why dont we use this day 12 Rabiawal to to have seminars and programs about HAzrat Muhammad SAW, so that people can learn from it, muslims and non muslims alike, instead of just taking out a procession ( why the heck it is done always boggles me) and playing naats on loudspeaker.
Why cant we just keep it simple.
By the way ! this pratice of celebrating 12 Rabi Awal is done only by South Asians ! and this too gained momentum some 30 years back !
no one else where celebrates the event by installing 100*100 watt bulbs and countless tube-lights of green color ! thinking by this they show that they love holy Prophet SAW. Instead of following what he said, people are busy doing this,
Just take the example of "CHUP Tazia" procession taken out yesterday,i don’t know the specific detail/background/history/religious significance of this procession but all i know is that city’s main arteries were blocked on a working day and messed up the traffic all over the city coz of the multiple gridlocks created by road blockage.. and certainly Prophet Muhammed and his grandsons(may Allah be pleased with them all) never asked these people to block M A jinnah road and make the lives of others miserable..
"The route of "CHUP TAZIA" procession will be as under: Nishtar Park/ Shah Nawaz Bhutto Road / Father Jaminis Road/ M A Jinnah Road/ Mainefield Street/ Preedy Street again M A Jinnah Road/ Boulton Market/ Bombay Bazar/ Market Road/ Mahabat Khanji Road/ Atma Ram Pritam Das Road to Moosa Lane/ Noor Bagh Musafir Khana, where the procession will terminate after holding Majlis."
* Johny
While in Islam this is a Bidaah, You are not allowed to induct any practice in the name of Islam,
and our ST people have done nuthing but Biddah !
***
Johny boy, phir vohee murghee kee aik Taang.
Who are you to qualify, verify, certify if an act is a part of Islam or not? Haaai’n?
Also, the K in KMB is for Karachi – not for Dubai or Qatar…so stick to bidat, and stop trying to impress us by this bidah baloney.
Again, if all these idiots will limit these celebrations/mournings to their house, I will be a happy man.
so stick to bidat, and stop trying to impress us by this bidah baloney.
"Begani Shadi me Abdullah Dewana". Balma Chawdhry tumhara Bidat,Islam waghaira se kia leyna deyna while you have officially told all of us that you stay away from something called "religion"
so please, don’t poke your lil nose in such things and better pat John McCain who had not been sounding different than you these days
I hate to tell you O’Reilly boy that I am not so baigana from this discussion. BTW, I enjoyed your use of this not-so-common-any-more Urdu saying. thank you.
Here is my panga:
I hate when people tell others what is or not Islam…why ? Because I don’t want them to start blowing up each other…you know how it ends up among Muslims.
Also, when these Milad/Muharram julooses destroy the peace of the city, stop people from going to work, damage public property, block traffic, and so on, it directly affects me.
Therefore, you shouldn’t think of me as baigana here….. I have a vested interest here.
As i have suggested, if people could live and let live in terms of religion etc, Karachi will be a much nicer place.
btw, is John M c C a i n into religion these days? I didn’t get your point?
I hate the bastard, so I try to avoid any news about him, but since you brought it up….
Johny boy, phir vohee murghee kee aik Taang.
Who are you to qualify, verify, certify if an act is a part of Islam or not? Haaai’n?
Also, the K in KMB is for Karachi – not for Dubai or Qatar…so stick to bidat, and stop trying to impress us by this bidah baloney.
Again, if all these idiots will limit these celebrations/mournings to their house, I will be a happy man.
firstly I can easily say that it is not part of Islam, because this practice only started 20-40 years back and only in South Asia!
Secondly Bidaah has got nothing to with either Dubai or Qatar, neither Karachi !
it has got to do with Islam !
and It was mentioned to show that this act has got nuthing to do with Islam !
The muslims is the person who follow the teaching and sunnahs of our Hazrat Muhammad SAW, Nowhere in Quran or Hadith says that we should celebrate birthdays! Contrary to that, Islam refrains us from spending money which is not required (fuzool kharchi),
Now many of you will say that when 14th August is celebrated then no one criticizes it, so we should also celebrate a "Islamic" event same way!
then my answer to that is , if something bad is going on and nobody criticizes , then that definitely doesn’t mean it is allowed,
and that doesn’t allow us to induct that practice under the name of Islam.
Johny, toom tou chhoopay mullah niklay!
btw, is John M c C a i n into religion these days?
these days? when he was not? Balma Chudhary seems over dosage of alcohol have made you beygana from surrounding. see how that ring winger is just sounding like you
It seems like M c C a i n was helped by a Christian Mullah in his fight against Mullah Huckabee…. so what is your point O’Reilly?
This is like Zardari sleeping with Fazlu these days!
I don’t see what all this has to do with Mullahs busy with ghunda gardi on the streets of Karachi? How does what you quoted justify or not justify miles long milad/muharram juloos in Karachi?
And, what does your quote has to do with the other group of PK mullahs calling everyone else not agreeing with them, non Muslims?
I fail to see your logic.
balma ko koi ghar per liftnahi karata thats why he is like that
retarded,frsutrated etc etc
plz is ko kuch na kahen and ignore him for every post. Is ki bakwass ki addaat hay. He bring religion into every thing doesnt matter wat topic it is .. Retarded, isnt he?
*IUNKNOWN,
He bring religion into every thing doesnt matter wat topic it is ..
****
Any posting under the title "Here comes Rabi-ul-Aval" will probably refer to religion. Unless you think Rabi-ul-Aval is some movie actress???
Hellllllooooo????
Please do not blame Balma for bringing in Islam into everything. How can he avoid it when Mullas have shoved Islam in every our act of ours so much so that one can’t even wash one’s back side without wondering whether one is doing it right or not.
Balma may be frustrated and retarded as alleged. But gentleman that is forgiveable. What is not forgiveable is his talking sense ie calling a spade a spade in religous matters. Now that is biddah and not allowed. It puts Islam into great danger. For this he is WAJABUL KATAL. So let us do him in to save Islam.
And also why critisize Mulla? The Mullas were critisized when they gave Fatwas against the use of electricity, loudspeakers and telephones when these SATANIC devices came into use. Now he is being critcized when he loves the use of not only these devices but also in addition Mobile Phones. Have you noticed the glow on his face when he is speaking through a mobile!
No wonder YEH DAIKH KABIRA ROYA !!!
Well said johny. One correction: Mawlid an-Nabi is not only "celebrated" in South Asia but also in other parts of the Muslim world as well, unfortunately. It’s only the khaleej part of middle east where this doesn’t occur, alhamdulillah. And, this bidah was introduced long time ago by the Fatimeen when they were ruling Egypt by copying the Christians who celebrated ‘Esa (alyhi as-salam) birth. Our goal should be to follow the Quran and the authentic sunnah and ahadith even if the rest of the Muslims do something else. We’re against this bidah not because it is not celebrated by some other Muslims but because it is not a form of worship sanctioned by Allah and His rasool (saw).
Kabirdas, again, since you are not a Muslim you won’t understand what is going on here. Whatever you have read on Islam, you need to read again and from some authentic source for your own benefit so that Allah may guide you to Islam. Until then, please stay away from such discussions. I’m sure there is an another forum/blog/entry on this blog for somebody like you. You don’t see Adnan or iunknown or me telling you how to be a good non-Muslim. So, stay away.
To Muslims: It’s your duty, no your right, to tell others with good manners what is allowed in Islam and what is not. The only criteria is the Quran, the authentic Sunnah with the understanding of the early generations of Muslims, which include our beloved sahabah, the four imams (and their teachers) and the imams of hadith.
On the flip side, as Muslims it is our duty as well to listen to a sincere, edcuated advice and make corrections in our understanding of Islam no matter if people around us are not following the correct understanding. This only happens if we, again, make the Quran, the authentic ahadith and the rulings and practices of the early generations as our miyaar (criterion) of knowing what is allowed or not allowed in Islam.
Mr. Kabirdaas: You wrote…"t may be pertinent to mention here why is it so that our prayers are much more elaborate and long compared to the prayers of Saudis". The answer is simple. Pakistan is the Land of the Pure. Look all around you in Karachi, in every nook and corner, and you will see purity in its purest form. From the mansions in Defence, to the looted and plundered city, to the suicide bombings, to Muslim killing Muslim, senseless violence. There is a lot to pray for, a lot to beg forgiveness for, but the answers will not be in this life time. Thank you for your bold comments. I find them interesting,thought provoking and pertinent. OTK
kabirdas may be another character for balma to write comments and to end up his frustration here at KMB.
@Balma on his peak of retardness. Aur ban murtid
Oh yeah, I am kabirdas…yup yuppee yup.
balma:
Well,if you are kabirdas then by the same token I would or should or could be balma. Seems to be a case of idientity crisis. Let us seek the help of iunknown to sort out who is who. Same are both or both are same or whatever? You have really confused me now about myself :-)
Sorry, KabirDittah, if I talk to you..I will be talking to myself. I have done that in private, but doing that in public….
By the way, if Ibrahim aleh Salam’s bud-dua comes true, KabirDittah may be dead too. Oops!
oldetymekarachiite:
Quite honestly it didn’t occur to me that this could be the reason for our long prayers and there could also be the reason that we don’t have anything better to do.
ibrahim: You are still not prepared to accept me as a Muslim despite my detailed post of 18 March. Well, there is little else I can do to convince you of my faith. Come to think of it I may well not be a Muslim as per your definition of a Muslim which seems to be: A Muslim is one who is dogmatic and does not use the faculty of his mind with which Allah has endowed him and is overawed by the verbosity of Ulma-e-Karam’s (read Mulla)sermons etc etc.
However, I do acknowledge my poor knowledge of various sects of Islam and what they stand for. There you are right. But about Islam as a whole and other religions, I am proud to say, I have fair amount of knowledge.
By the way I may strongly recommend to you, sometime when you have the time, to read a short 6 page essay of Bertrand Russell titled ‘The Essence and Effect of Religion’. You will find it thought provoking.
In the end I would like to emphasize that in my view any human activity religious or otherwise which is a cause of inconvenience for others is not acceptable. For me saying Azan on extremly powerful loud speakers in various mosques in close proxmity to each other in a residential area is as bad as loud singing and dancing in a residential area. If you have any doubts about it I would like to invite your attention to Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) Widai Khutaba in which he talked about Hakook Allah most briefly and stressed the Hakook ul Abad through out his Widai Khutaba.
Even if you consider me a non-Muslim I don’t mind that. I will continue to be what I am. However, I will request you to note what I am saying and not who am I.
Let us now celebrate the 12 Rabiul Awwal in a nice and decent manner without any pomp and show to honour our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who beside having immense qualities was a very serious and sober person which Mulla in his zeal and fervour tends to overlook.
In the end I may also clarify that balma and me are two differnt persons. Our thinking may be similar which is a different matter.
balma:
Now feel at ease mate. You may now talk to me without being accused of talking to yourself and thus being retarted and what not. I have now let the cat out of the bag. And it is not a black cat which I have let out in a dark black room. It can be seen by all those who want to see. Like truth visible to those who not only can but want to see as well.
I will feel sorry if by living on I disappoint Ibrahim. Wonder if he set a dead line for his bud-dua to take effect. I am not scared though. I liberated myself of such myths of Mulla long time back. And I promise you I have been leading a very happy life ever since I rid myself of Mulla’s sermons he uses to scare the day light out of poor souls to keep them in a srait jacket which he calls as Saratul Mustakeem.
Good night. It was nice to have met you and also met some other pious guys. So long.
KabirDittah,
I am totally confused. You could be me. I complained under my name ‘balma’ many months ago on simultanous azans in full blast on loudspeakers from 5 or more mosques at the same time in uncivilized areas like DHA and Golimar. Do these idiots have to use loud speakers?
Loud speakers should be banned, except for Jumma namaz (not azan).
But, then again, I am confused because I don’t think you are me….i will never write Hakook or Musakeem, but will prefer to write haqooq and mustaqeem. Unless, of course, I did this just to look different when I am indeed the same person using two different identities…
Finally, Hazrat Ibrahim Aleh Salam was not predicitng, so he does not have to set a deadline. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian used to do that…open ended predictions….XYZ will die….would never say when:-)
Ibrahim aleh salam was only bud-praying, bud-wishing, bud-hoping – totally Un Islamic as Balma would say…..oops, I meant, as KabirDittah would say ;-)
Kabirdas, like I said: When you learn about Islam (basic stuff…you don’t need to get into sects; you require basic knowledge) and become a Muslim then show up here again. Also, like I said before: Find some authentic stuff to read on Islam and stop reading orientalists like Russell.
Kabirdas is very thick-headed and insists on being called a Muslim. Aql choo kar nahin guzri hay inn janab ko. So, people let me quote him (Kabirdas) what he said above in this very post: I am an agnostic but still say the following prayer regularly: Oh, God! Save me from your followers.
O my retarted friend, you’re a borderline atheist let alone being a Muslim. People, get ready for some funny stuff when this non-Musilm tells us that being agnostic is the truth that Islam preaches. Who are you going to use as your evidence/reference? Russell? Calder? Schacht? Or some other oreintalist from whom you take your knowledge of Islam.
Make fun of Islam all you want, but when you guys are put in the line of fire, then suddenly you want to quote khutbatul Wida’ and tell us that it’s totally "UnIslamic" to give bud-duaa (which depending on situation it’s NOT). Where was this concern from him about Islamic/unIslamic when Retard Balma had been speaking kufr right, left and center. Very nice. Is the khutba the only thing Rasoolullah (saw) ever said?
Now, let me remind a few things: Denying EVEN A SINGLE ayah of Quran is kufr; making fun of sha’air (symbols) of Islam, which includes scholars (as an entity), is kufr; calling for wahdaniyat of religions (like Kabirdas does above i.e. "…He was above the prjudices of religions.") is kufr; denying ahadith (or picking and choosing at will) is kufr. Calling yourself an agnostic, atheist, "nothing to do with religion", etc, etc. is kufr.
Like I said, learn some Islam, become a Muslim inshaAllah and then show up here. And, stop telling the Muslims whether they should celebrate Mawlid an-Nabi or not. Most all of the Muslims here have said that it shouldn’t be celebrated, which is the correct position, and you have NO right to mingle in these affair. Don’t be like other retards here.
when i woke up this morning….beautiful morning…everything was working….the newspaper was in, my hot cup of lipton yellow label(regular) was ready…and iam here on the net which is also working good…so i wish to salute and thank everybody who made this day possible for me.
MAY THE BLESSINGS OF ALLAH AND THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD(PBUH) be with you today and always….
If Ibrahim is what an ideal Muslim should be, any sensible person with a thinking mind on his shoulders will stay away from Islam like plague. He first cursed persons who don’t see eye to eye with him regarding his dogmatic concept of Islam. He then insulted them and their intelligence, notwithstanding that his opponents consistently displayed much more magnanimity and tolerance towards him. Still not content with his disgraceful act of invoking death to another human being, of course in the name of Al-Lah, he is now firing fatwas of kufr as punishment for any possible transgression. If his kufr pronouncements are taken literally, it would easily render majority of living Muslims out of the faith. This is kufr and that’s kufr… Ibrahim has clearly working under a belief that he is master of all that is ASLI TE WADA Islam and he is the one who decides what is ‘authentic’. Anyone disagreeing with his (mis)concepts is destined for nowhere else by the dark circle of kufr. Why would not anyone love this Islam (and would smilingly buckle up an ammunition belt under his/her garments of the sake of Islam)? ISLAM ZINDABAD
what is ‘asli te wada’?
"authentic and large"
A correction:
مولد is basically an arabic word and not english. It a derivation from ولد. Now used in english probably but arabic originally. BTW, since urdu’s a subset of Aabic; its used in urdu too :)
A for whatever,
Urdu is not a subset of Arabic. I guess you meant to say that Urdu/Hindi has lots of ‘words’ from Arabic.
While Mullahs are hell bent upon destroying the piece in Paksitan, please review
http://brecorder.com/index.php?id=712020&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=
to see how another group of people thinks Pakistan is their baap kee jaagir. Read and sir dhoonyae.
Additionally, we should limit the number of English language newspapers in Pakistan. Why do we need countless English papers when the quality of language is horrible. Look at the English writing skills of the author of the above quoted article from Business Recorder. Terribly bad English, Balma would argue. Who are we trying to fool. Who are we kidding? Why is one Pakistani writing bad English for other Paksitans when they could all talk and write in Urdu? Cousin marriages? Is that the reason? :-)
But, anyway, Balma is going off tangents as usual here, so lets stick to my original point.
Is Pakistan someomne’s baap kee jagir?
Peace, not piece :-)
Milad-un-nabi ,Good friday,Holi and Nowrūz all coinciding this year
@balma (a.k.a kabirdas, kami, jayjay,ammar,alam etc etc) i understand how hard u have to work while writting comments with different identities.
U r totally retarded person.
Ref: iunknown March 22nd, 2008 7:13 am
No sir, no sweat at all. It all comes naturally to me being retarded like you said whereby I tend to call a spade a spade be it a religous spade or otherwise.
Ref: d0ct0r (d0ctor) March 21st, 2008 9:45 pm
Good. And no blood letting except a little among the Allah’s chosen people to iron out their few differences so critical and important for the well being of Ummah and humanity as well I suppose.
Ref: balma March 21st, 2008 8:29 pm: "Is Pakistan someomne’s baap kee jagir?"
A group of people who used to call Quaid-e-Azam as Kafer-e-Azam tend to think so. It is their jagir to sow the seeds of what they perceive as real Islam.
Ref: balma March 21st, 2008 8:13 pm
Agreed. Urdu is neither a subset of Arabic nor a dialect of Arabic. However, putting it more precisely lots of Urdu words (mostly nouns) are inter alia from Arabic and lots of words (mostly verbs) are from Hindi.
Ref: sceptic March 21st, 2008 5:33 pm
May be pertinent to quote Allama Iqbal here who said: Jihad-e-Mulla fisad fee sabil Allah which roughly translated means Mulla’s Jihad is mischief in the name of Allah.
Ref: sceptic March 21st, 2008 5:33 pm
You seem to be another retard (as per Mr.Ibrahim). Wellcome to the club.
Ref: balma March 21st, 2008 7:38 am
Don’t be confused. It is not a case of split personality as Mr. Ibrahim may think. A case of Dr.Jackyal and Mr. Hyde. It may be a case of what Maulana Roomi said: Tou mun shoodi mun tou shudum. (You became me and I became you). Our thoughts about certain things just happen to be in tandem.
Mr. Ibrahim: Good news for you. Your holy prayers may be having some effect. As I tried to transmit this post I have started having some kind of problem. My internet server is asking for my pass word time and time again. And then you object to my only little prayer to counter such curses: Oh God save me from your followers. Could it be that my server is also bit confused and asking me for the pass word of balma?
Kabirdas – Please continue to call a spade a spade as it hurts irrationalists (aka religionists) like nothing. Logic and common sense are anathema to clergy of all hue and shades.
wow, the thread goes on! Thanks Balma Chudhary!
A group of people who used to call Quaid-e-Azam as Kafer-e-Azam tend to think so. It is their jagir to sow the seeds of what they perceive as real Islam.
Daas sahab, there was also a group(Seculars of that time) who tried to make Jinnah "Partner in Crime" by propagating that Jinnah had no knowledge of Islam’s basics since he never practiced. So Ironically both left and right wing fools were whining at that time.
Ref: ibrahim March 21st, 2008 8:33 am
My dear sir:
Please allow me to say the following in response to your subject post. No offence is meant. However, if for some odd reason it does please you or make you feel better or make you feel good in the eyes of your God please go ahead and curse and say your Bud Doas as you wish like many of you do when threatened by reason.
You have advised me to acquire basic knowledge about Islam. I thought I had done that more extensively than many Muslims tend to do. I am not just a Muslim because I was borne in a Muslim family and was cirumcised also. I have looked at Islam both from within and from without and found it to be a good religion to follow. One of the reason for this is that Islam compared to other major religions of the world is a more recent religion. Now when I say Islam is a good religion to follow I mean Islam without some Kharafats which unfortunately have cropped into it because of its misuse by rulers and some so called religious scholors. To keep it vibrant for all time to come as we claim it is we do not apply the mechanisms of Ijtehad and Ijtima built into it for this very purpose. Will you be able to tell me when was the last time or ever that these mechanisms were used for their intended purpose for which the need has been arising from time to time; more so now than ever before?
I have read Koran not once, not twice but many times over. Its translation in English by various translators. My personal two copies which I usually refer to are one by Marmaduke Pickthall and one by Maulana Muhammad Ali. The copy by Muhammad Ali was passed on to my father by my grand father and then to me by my father with followng remarks written by him on its front page as follows: "To (my name) with love and prayer that Allah may guide his life according to this Book."
I think to a great extent my life is guided by it as I understand it.
And Mr. Ibrahim will you be so kind to recommend me some more " authentic stuff to read on Islam " than this Book before you consider me eligible to " become a Muslim then show up here again."
No doubt, I have read Bertrand Russell. He is not an orientalist by the way. You may call him a philospher, a mathematician, a logician, a reformer or in a nut shell a world renowned scholor. At various universities he taught courses on ‘ On philosphic bases of human living’ and on ‘Philosphy of Mathematics’ etc. He wrote extensively about religion. I have mostly read his essays about religion and have been greatly influenced by his views. I have also read Will Durant and many others but in understanding religion I consider BR my Guru. By the way my main area of study is not Religion or Philosphy. It is the study of the Universe and Life. For that I have extensively read various popularizers of such subjects as Theory of Relativity, Cosmology, Theory of Evolution and Genese and gentics. These subjects, believe it or not, have also helped me to understand religion, any religion including Islam. No I have not read Calder o Schacht. Recently I have read 3 volumes of History of Islam by a Maulana whose name I forget right now. An excellent book. It also tells you some dark side of our history. I mean the earlier history which we tend to regard as examplary period of Islam. The period of Khulfa -e- Rashedin.
Now Mr. Ibrhim if you think I will give up reading BR and likes of him then I might as well tell you this. I will rather die of your Bud Duas than give up reading to get as close to the truth as possible. You may well be right when you say: "Kabirdas is very thick-headed and insists on being called a Muslim. "Aql choo kar nahin guzri hay inn janab ko." My dear friend (if you do not mind my calling you so) will you please help me to find and acquire the ‘Aql’ you profess to posses but unforunately show no palpable signs of it. On the contrary – - –
Yes, I am an agnostic and proud of being one. I will rather be an agnostic and serve the humanity in whatever way I can rather than kill in the name of Allah ie your Allah. I will rather be known as borderline athiest or even a full fledged athiest if that means not committing crimes and killing innocent human beings in the name of religion or Allah. Please read history any history. You will find more killing has been done in the name of religion and God by people of faiths rather than by athiests or agnostics.
You would have not been so worked up by the word agnostic had you known what it really means. If you are curious to know which obviously you wouldn’t be (knowledge being a dangerous thing for men of faith) please read BR’s 9 page essay titled ‘What is an Agnostic’. After reading this article which is written in simple easy to understand English you may change your mind. So much so that you yourself like to become an agnostic. The beauty of BR’s writing is that he writes simple English without any jargon which can be understood by a ‘thick headed’ person like me also. He once so aptly said: I want to write about philosphy in a manner so that it can also be ‘understanded’ by an ordinary man.
I make no fun of any religion let alone Islam. However, I am very critical of certain aspects and certain practices of all religions. I have no prjudices. I treat them all equally with respect. Hey friend what line of fire are you talking about? I am not Mush. I am your most obedient servant kabirdas. First you confuse me with ‘balma’ and now you are confusing me with Mush. It is Mush who is ‘in line of fire’. Not me chief! OK give Bud Dua under special or under not so special circumstances. You just make me laugh when you look heavenward towards your Allah and say a Bud Dua inviting him also to join you in damnation of your fellow human being.
Please point out the Kufr which " Retard Balma had been speaking kufr right, left and center." If he has done that I will personally take charge of him and join you giving him a joint Bud Dua. OK are you happy now. Show me the Kufr spoken by him in respect of our religion in your next post. By the way have you two by any chance been talking to each other behind our backs on some other network also. By the way before I follow it up further I will take a Fatwa from you. Suppose I find him guilty as alleged by you. Will he still be entitled to a Bud Dua from us notwithstanding the fact that he is a retarded person as you say. Please clarify this point in advance.
No, khutaba is not the only thing that Rasoolullal (saw) said. He must have said host of other things. Why do you ask this question?
I agree with you that denying even a single verse of Koran is Kufr. However interpreting it differently is another matter. I will never think of mocking a scholor of any colour or creed or of any religion for that matter. I hold all scholors in high regard for their scholostic attainments particulary when they have something original to offer. Persons pretending and acting like scholors who can be spotted easily is a differnt matter. What are the symbols of Islam? Do you mean things like beard etc? Also what do you mean by the wahdaniyat of religions? I thought wahdaniat may mean unity or oneness etc.
I will have no hasitation to reject a Hadith which is clearly against the Book. Longtime back Pervez Ahmed was declared a Munker-e-Hadith and thus a Kafir. All he did was to suggest that all the Hadiths must be scrutinized and those found against the Book be discarded once for all rather them keep them as they are and continue fighting about their verasity. To illustrate his point he pointed out about 40 such Hadiths and said no Muslim in his right mind would accept that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would have said such a thing. I don’t have those 40 Hadiths with me now. Anyway even if I did I wouldn’t have been able to reproduce them here for the information and opinion of Mr. Ibrahim. They were unprintable!! So you see Master Ibrahim what I am trying to say in this regard.
Did I say Mawlid an-Nabi should not be celebrated? When and where? If most of you think it should not be celebrated. I would say it must be.
So as you see Master Ibrahim the ball is back in your court. Respond to this post to enable me to become a good Muslim so that I can return to this site.
In the end Mr. Ibrahim I feel I will be failing in my duty if I do not give you a brotherly advice. Whether you take this advice or not is entirely up to you. I will advise you that when you come across such persons who insist on calling a spade a spade you may try a Doa insted of a Bud Dua for them. The Doa could be Oh God show them the right path. I promise you your this kind of Doa is likely to have better effect than the one you use now as a good Muslim and as paragon of virtues.
May God bless you !!
KabirDittah,
You are going to get into big trouble by mentioning the English transaltion of Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali.
Bohut Dramay baazi ho gee ab!
Oh boy….bhaag balmaa, toofaan aayaa!
balma:
What’s wrong with Quran translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali? Didn’t ibrahim advised me to respect our scolors and I said ‘I do’.
You better look after yourself. If ibrahim proves the charge of kufr against you then I am going to join him in his Bud Duas for you.
As far as I am concerned don’t worry about me. Like Chacha Ghalib:
Ik hangamay pay mokoof hae maray ghar ki ronak
You know I have never been so happy ever since I stopped caring too much about the public opinion as advised by my Guru Bertrand Russell. In his book ‘THE QUEST OF HAPPINESS’ in a chapter titled ‘Fear of Public Opinion’ he states:
I think in general apart from expert opinion, there is too much respect paid to opinions of others, both in great matters and in small ones. One should respect public opinion in so far as is necessary to avoid starvation and to keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntry submission to an unnecessary tyrrany, and is likely to interfere with happiness of all kinds of ways.
To be out of harmony with ones surroundings is of course a misfortune, but it is not always a misfortune to be avoided at all cost. When the environment is stupid or prejudiciial or cruel, it is sign of merit to be out of harmony with it.
In regard to the subject under discussion with Mr. Ibrahim I have just found another approprite quote of BR from his book ‘Education and the Social Order’ which is as follows:
Qwing to the the idientification of religion with virtue, together with the fact that the most religious persons are not the most intelligent, a religious education gives courage to the stupid to resist the authority of educated men, and as has happened, for example, where the teaching of evolution has been made illegal. So far as I can remember, there is not one word in Gospels in praise of intelligence; and in this respect ministers of religion follow gospel authority more closlely than in some others.
Areay mera bhai, Kabirdaas, aap buhot cheez hai. You have proved your view convincingly, and shattered those of the dogmatic ideologists by quoting beloved BR. Unfortunately, this country is full of such ministers of religion. They have distorted the beauty of God, Religion, Morality, Humanity, Universality, into Bud Duas and Kufrs. So insecure in their own faith. OTK
biTvah KabirDittah,
I am not going to get into details of why you could land into big trouble by mentioning Quran translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali. I don’t want you to get into trouble;-)
But just wait, soon the anti-kufr brigade will descend on KMB declaring jihad on you ;-)
But, if you don’t get into trouble -that is good news ….either trouble makers have moved on to greener pasteurs, or the younger generation does not know who Maulana Muhammad Ali was… which actually is a good news for Pakistan.
KabirDas – What do you think of BR’s "Why I am not Christian"? I personally like it as it shatters the myth of divinity of religions.
somebody told me that pope is a german…..they never told me he is a humanitarian as well……thankyou papa.
Baadhban khulney sey pehley ka ishara dekhna
mein sammander dekhta houn tum kinara dekhna…..
Very impressive by Kabirdas and balma!!!!Mullas are only for teaching how to read Quran-E-Pak in arabi to kids but not more then that.
Spelling mistake:
I meant greener pastures.
Ref: oldetymekarachiite March 23rd, 2008 7:44 pm
Actually I would say they have found their salvation in ignorance. After all ignorance is a bliss.
Ref: balma March 24th, 2008 3:34 am
Let them declare their Jihad on me. I have already told you what Allama Iqbal said about Mulla’s Jihad.
Ref: sceptic March 24th, 2008 6:53 am
It is a good piece. However, please note the reasons given by BR for not being a Christian can not be cited in their entirety for not being a Muslim. If I ever decide to write such a book it will be titled : ‘Why I am not a Mulla.’
If you happen to hold this book please read its Appendix titled: ‘How Bertrand Russel was Prevented from Teaching at the College of the City of New york.’ I found it most interesting to read. It shows the bigotry of their Mullas.
Ref: wasiq March 24th, 2008 8:44 am
Sorry, didn’t quite see its relevance to the issue at hand. If you are being circaustic (spelling ?) I will like to draw your attention to Albert Schwairtzer (spelling ? ) who was also a German. Don’t malign German as a anation.
Ref: salmakhan March 24th, 2008 9:57 am
Yes, they may be useful for that but under your ones watchful eyes.
Ref: balma March 24th, 2008 10:53 pm
You could have more aptly corrected your mistake by saying they have moved to Louis Pasteur (for pasteurization which they need)
Guys for a new very interesting issue get ready for a news which is going to hit news papers in next few days. Should one have freedom to pick and choose ones religion or not. Mulla believes in one way traffic only. Mulla believes followers of other religions should be made to convert to Islam by all possible means. However, if a Muslim converts to anyother faith he is Wajabul Katal meaning kill him in the name of Allah.
Well, one poor Muslim, Magdi Allam, has done that today. He has been baptized by Pope. He has said:
"I realize what I am going up against but I will confront my fate with my head high, with my back straight and the interior strength of one who is certain about his faith."
For details you may visit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080323/wl_nm/pope_muslim_dc
I am not pleased to learn about Magdi Allam’s conversion to Christianity as such but then anything that displeases a Mulla somehow pleases me. Anyway why make fuss about losing one Muslim when we are so efficient at producing new ones at a unmatchable rate :-)
Mr. Ibrahim you are needed here again for your Bud Duas. What else can you do otherwise? This is an age of freedom. Freedom from tyranny.
No, the person who leaves Islam is not vaajib-ul-qatal.
But, if you keep writing qatal as katal, you will be vaajib-ul-qatal.
Pope is quite stupid in giving such prominence to a conversion. get a job pope dude.
Hazrat Ibrahim Aleh Salaam is about to jump into this KMB fire any moment……
Ref: balma March 25th, 2008 8:46 am
You have made my day by your remarks about writng Qatal with ‘K’. After a long time I am going to start my day with a smile. I am glad nobody noticed my writing Qoran with a K which would have been even a great sin. Actually balma the problem is I am not a Ahl-e-Zaban hence this K for Q. Even Allama Iqbal was guilty of this. I think it may be easier to follow the Hydrabadis and pronounce K as kh:-)
I will not take a chance on being a Murtid. There are 2 school of thoughts on this issue. One says conversion from Islam to any other religion is not Wajab-ul-Qatal the other says it is. I will not trust either one of them.
You are right about Pope. Quite honestly I consider him an edifice of ignorance in this age. By the way another issue is brewing up in Canada over Laleh Bakhtiar’s Qur’an Translation – Verse 4:34. For detais you may like to visit:
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/laheh_bakhtiars_quran_translation_controversy_over_verse_434/
Wonder what would ibrahim say about all this. The poor chap may run out of his Bud Duas in dealing with so many issues :-) You know I miss his absence from this Blog. I hope he resurfaces soon and colour to the proceedings.
@kabirdas jee….
My apologies to you and all the german readers of the blog…..!
the relevence is to the one above….some non-RC readers might find it difficult to grasp….still my apologies.
Continued from above…
Please point out the Kufr which " Retard Balma had been speaking kufr right, left and center." If he has done that I will personally take charge of him and join you giving him a joint Bud Dua. OK are you happy now. Show me the Kufr spoken by him in respect of our religion in your next post.
Where shall I start? Ask him first and let’s see if he has an ounce of dignity in him. He has said a lot of things, mock the symbols of Islam, curse ahadith, and as Adnan quoted has said he has nothing to do with something called religion. Btw, since you call yourself an agnostic, what you say about Islam or somebody’s faith in Islam has no weight.
I don’t talk to Balma privately. When I ignore 99.9% of his posts here, why would I ever talk to him privately?! You know very well that when I say retard I mean the arguments sound retarded….when one has nothing to talk about then he/she starts to split hair. Well done.
No, khutaba is not the only thing that Rasoolullal (saw) said. He must have said host of other things. Why do you ask this question?
Because either you are completely ignorant (highly likely) or you don’t want to believe in the many principles laid out in other ahadith.
I agree with you that denying even a single verse of Koran is Kufr. However interpreting it differently is another matter.
Do you agree a verse can be denied by interpreting it in a way that the meaning is completely changed? Just because it’s interpreted doesn’t mean the person doing so is not denying it. It’s clear cut in surah an-Nisaa’ that in inheritence a son gets twice as much as a daughter. Now, if you have a guy who "interprets" it to mean that they have equal share, is this kufr or not?
I hold all scholors in high regard for their scholostic attainments particulary when they have something original to offer.
This is why I say you shouldn’t talk about Islam, besides many other reasons. Any “scholar” is rejected who has something “original to offer” in Islam. The best of scholars or Muslims are those who try to follow the Quran, the sunnah of Rasoolullah (saw) and of his sahabah, etc. without bringing something new to the religion.
Persons pretending and acting like scholors who can be spotted easily is a differnt matter. What are the symbols of Islam?
Believe me, you don’t have an ounce of ability to spot a real scholars from frauds such as Javed Ahmed Ghamidi.
Do you mean things like beard etc? Yes and many things else.
Also what do you mean by the wahdaniyat of religions? I thought wahdaniat may mean unity or oneness etc.
Yes, unity or oneness of religion. Like, your comment that this Kabirdas who was a Hindur or Muslim (nobody knows!) was above prejudice of religion when our prophet (saw) wasn’t. So, who is correct?
I will have no hasitation to reject a Hadith which is clearly against the Book.
May Allah guide you. How did you end up with this principle? Where did you learn this or made it up yourself? Is this mentioned in the Quran (it is not)? This is kufr, big kufr. Tell me: Would Rasoolullah (saw) say anything against al-Quran? If you say he didn’t; rather somebody else made up most of the ahadith (that are “clearly against the Book”) then how did you decide the ahadith that you believe in weren’t made up? I thought you guys were all into logic? Where does logic go when it comes to these issues.
To illustrate his point he pointed out about 40 such Hadiths and said no Muslim in his right mind would accept that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would have said such a thing. I don’t have those 40 Hadiths with me now. Anyway even if I did I wouldn’t have been able to reproduce them here for the information and opinion of Mr. Ibrahim. They were unprintable!! So you see Master Ibrahim what I am trying to say in this regard.
There is nothing that has been authentically reported by Rasoolullah (saw) that is “unprintable”. Don’t create fall impressions. Still, let’s say there were about 40 or 100 or 200 such ahadith. But, why is that munkar-e-hadith end up denying or drastically changing most of the ahkaam in Islam? This is because these “unprintable” ahadith are just an excuse to reject the most straightforward and clear-cut ahadith.
You talked about ejima (ijitma as you said it). So, why not believe in ejima of most that munkar-e-hadith are kuffar? Where is ‘aql. O Allah, grant all of us sincerity and aql-e-saleem.
… you may try a Doa insted of a Bud Dua for them. The Doa could be Oh God show them the right path. I promise you your this kind of Doa is likely to have better effect than the one you use now as a good Muslim and as paragon of virtues.
Yes, good advice. And, I almost always do so. Ask Balma himself. But, the unfortunate part is, what is the response by people like you: "Oh, so you think we are misguided and you are the only guided ones!" When people don’t have sincerity in their hearts, then any argument or duaa in favor or against them is a loose-loose situation.
Now, let me ask you a couple of questions:
Do you believe that Islam is THE absolute truth…the only way to worship Allah and enter Jannah?
Is a person who believes in relative truth (there are other ways other than Islam to please Allah and enter Jannah) a Muslim? This belief is similar but not exactly the same to wahdaniyat of religions.
When Allah says in Quran that He has chosen Islam as THE religion and completed it (through Quran and ahadith and principles laid down by Quran and the sunnah), is it allowed for a person to bring something original to Islam?
Lastly, I will follow up with your response most probably one more time. But, that’s it because what I have to say in principle has been said. Now, we are delving into examples and other issues before resolving the basic ones on which other issues stand. The problem is I will only talk according to the principles in Islam and judge what is said about Islam according to these principles inshaAllah.
On the other hand, you and people like you have made everything fair game. You have no knowledge of usul-e-deen nor you care about principles. I’m saying follow the Quran and the sunnah and you are saying “My guru is BR”. What else then can I say except, by Allah, my “guru” is Rasoolullah (saw). You might be hurt by this, but you have very little knowledge of Islam, and you want to believe what you want to believe. But, remember at the end of the day every single one of us has to answer to Allah…kuffar and Muslims alike.