In Other Blogs: Karachi ek maa hai, Bambai bichada hua beta.
I came across this blog by Samvartha ‘Sahil’, where he mentions a poem by Nida Fazil.
Here is the poem he mentions:
” Karachi ek maa hai
Bambai bichada hua beta
yeh rishta pyar ka pakeezha rishta hai jise ab tak
na koi tod paaya hai
na koi tod paayega
na meri maa kabhi talwaar taane ran me aayi hai
na maine apni maa ke saamne bandook uthaayi hai
yeh kaisa shor-o-hangaama hai yeh kiski ladaayi hai
Karaachi ek maa hai. ”
Nida Fazli,
Read the rest of his blog here.
Jamash,
Learn to write propor Urdu when transliterating.
Use ‘R’ for bichaRa, not ‘d’.
Saalay, iss tarah kee hijay say Balma kee ankhiyo’n may dard hotaa hae.
Leave ‘d’ for use in Bombay’s language.
Unless you just saw movie "anmole gadhee" i.e. invaluable donkey!
proper
Interesting read.
@balma: he obviously copied from the "other blog".
confused family …. hain na!!!
jokes apart, its a nice poem.
tzaidi and balma bhai, LOL…Balma Sub Ka Kalma – purist will always nitpick! Bhaijaan samaj mein tu aarahi hai…it’s a try! atleast it’s better then "door say dekha tu ganjay uchal rahay thay"
bambai beta hai?
main samjha tha k beti hai
______________________
http://www.dufferistan.com
BS
pathetic poetry.. wrong theme ..
Bombay and Karachi are not in a mother-child relationship .. can never be even ‘sister cities’ .. dont u remember Quaid’s fourteen points? Sind should be separated from Bombay presidency??? does that ring any bells?? its a very very old issue…
this is a very serious attempt on the ideology of Pakistan … if India and Pakistan can co-exist together .. and if we are friends .. then the very foundations of Pakistan are wrong.. baseless… we will lose our "Wujuh-e-Wujood" (Reason of Existence)
Brothers and girls, This Talha Aziz sounds like a Hamid gul type, hidden Jamati.
To him, until Pakistanis do ungal in Indian’s gaafs, there is no reason for Pakistan to exist. vah, kyaa mantaq hae jaani!
I agreed with Talha Aziz 100 %,
Bulma JEE,
Do not "STAMP" on the different openion, aap ko bemary hay logon ko stamp kernay ke, yeh wo hay yeh is say taleq rekhta hay, wo MQM ka hay wo Jamty hay yeh PPP hay ….
Open your mind and eyes also,
We all are ONE….
Guys …. Guys chill out yar!!
Nida Fazli is one of the finist lyricist in Bollywood, and his work is appreciated by many.
One has to be secular to survive in Bollywood, so may be its his way of proving which side he is on. He is not someone to be taken seriously.
@balma
just to set the record straight.. i m not a Jamati .. infact .. i think Jamat is one among the worst of them all because they use the cover of Islam to exploit the people..
Nida is a girls name so i wonder why everyone is calling her a "he".
:)
Talha everyone can co-exist. I think you meant india paksitan cannot be one. Then again i don’t agree with you. India pakistan should be one under the just rule of a modern progressive islamic state where head of state would be elected by majority bait. I have no problem with hindus living in dar-ul-islam as protected citizens but i do have a problem with them or even muslims ruling us with god forsaken laws made from legislation by a handful of people. Democracy is slavery. The only difference between democracy and dictatorship is that in democracy there is a ‘dictator group’ of parliamentarians and heads of state (president and/or pm).
There is not much different in terms of state functioning in india and pakistan since both are secular democracies unlike what the ideology of pakistan was.
I know talha you are not secular, so the part below is for others here:
People can sing their "secular" song as much as they want. The fact of the matter is that the person who conceived the idea of paksitan and convinced quaid-e-azam to lead for it was Allama Iqbal who was a pan-islamist, and seeker of implementation of islam as a state.
Before you start labeling me ‘jihadi’ or ‘bachward’ or ‘fundamentalist’ i suggest you readup on the concept and structure of Islamic state and see how much pain democracy and capitalism has brought this world.
Salam
what do they say about Jamaatis, "A Good Jamaati is a Dead Jamaati". scums of earth!
May be we should ban free speech if what we get is freespeaker!
Chay-vows kee kumee nahi’n Balma
Aik DoonDo, hazaar miltay hai’n!
@freespeaker, I will advise you to check out ‘Nida Fazli’ on google.
As far as the crap you have written up there on Islamic Khilafat against Democracy, I think taking bait on hand of Calioh candidancy is as fair as giving vote to the selected ones. There is no difference.
Now before you start answering to whatever I have written, please do a proper research on Islamic governments, like Ummiyahs, Abbasis, Othamans, etc you will get the fair idea on what kind of government you are suggesting.
we shall never forget – INDIA IS OUR ENEMY NO.1 Indians can never be FRIENDS to Pakistan. Be it, those who believe in IT are STUPID., India is Time TESTED Enemy Forever.
on the 2nd Thought… I would love to put a bullet between eyes of such a Beta like Bombay People like Nida Fazli can suck my pee dripping dick.
– Raja saheb you have choice to delete this remark at your will. am Too pissed at all those who consider India as FRIEND. – Asteen ka Saanp is right term for such people.
Yep !!
Indian Government is trying to wash us away from the Globe and from every where they are against us,
they are spreading virus in our country,
they are just not happy to see us healthy,
Where ever they find chance they just speak and do act against us,
They hate us for real,
But what we are doing, watching indian movies, advertisment on TV, Songs, dramas, etc,
We should banned all of this…
Must View this: http://pakymedia.blogspot.com/
i totally agree with shamshi and wkhang.
@tzaidi: if "Ummiyahs, Abbasis, Othamans" caliphates were a failure… it was the failure of the people .. and NOT of Islam.. or the System of ISLAM .. because ISLAM is divine.. everything in it is from Allah and it can never be wrong..
@balma
"May be we should ban free speech if what we get is freespeaker!" <— Is that all you can say when you have nothings sensible to counter my arguments? You speak of banning free speech if it is anything other than what you like. All your future comments will be ignored by eveyone now because of your closed minded approach.
"<i>Chay-vows kee kumee nahi’n Balma
Aik DoonDo, hazaar miltay hai’n!" <— the height of a defeated and weak mentality! you are cursing me rather than answering. :) tsk tsk. i pity people like you.
@barristerakc
what do jamatis have to do with the current discussion? lol. Do label everyone talking about islam a Jamati? Grow up. Jamatis have no Islamic objectives. They are mullas out for power in a democratic system. thats all they want.
@tzaidi
Before you ask me to check out history, why dont you try to answer my accusations about democracy? because you are incapable or because you think it will give me more chances to prove democracy as the worst system for people??? "<i>I think taking bait on hand of Calioh candidancy is as fair as giving vote to the selected ones. There is no difference." <— sounds like you do not know history at all dude. there were always multiple candidates in the rightly guided caliphs and the people gave bat to whoever they wanted and the majority bait determined who is the new caliph. The rest of the people later gave bait to the selected caliph as an oath to obedience and to show respect and acceptance for the selected leader. how is that different to democratic elections other than that here, there are no parties but independent candidates???
@Shamsi,
India and Israel both. When Israeli founding fathers said israel must destroy pakistan at any cost, they should be our first enemies even before india. India will soon disintegrate into many small countries. Its inevitable. We dont need to worry about them too much other than answering they lies strongly on the media. Inshallah the oppressed dalits, shudars, muslims, sikhs, naxalites, christians will gain independence from a totalitarian Indian state which lets thousands die per day in riots.
@talha aziz
Agree with you. But the real problem right now is non-divine laws be it democracy or socialism or any other system. Similarly, rule of shaia and divine law is important not how it is implemented like caliphate or any other mechanism.
Guys lets talk like intelligent civilized people instead of just swearing and cursing and posting senseless blabbering.
<i>Lets see who can successfully defend democracy/capitalism.
Salam to all!
Democracy ?? what democracy ?? MY FOOT
If Pakistan is an Islamic State , then give me ONE example / 1 name of Islamic State / Country — which have Democractic system of Governenance – All Islamic States through out globe Operate under "Dictatorship" i.e at ease a liberal SHORA of "handpicked" individuals, there is no electoral college in any of 56 Islamic CUNT-ries
someone please Correct me if am CONFUSED
before someone goes on defending democracy .. i recommend u read an article i wrote log time ago :
http://aziztalha.blogspot.com/2007/05/democracy-in-pakistan.html
@shamsi
i think you misunderstood, because your compound question is pretty confusing.
Pakistan is NOT and Islamic state, neither is any other. Iran has tried a lot and came close but still not there. You probably dont know what an Islamic State is, like many other people. Islamic state implements every law based on Quran and Hadith. If you believe in authenticity of sharia (quran and hadith) then you cant argue that any other law can be better than, but you dont believe in authenticity of sharia then that is is another story.
Let me know which one it is.
anyway, democracy is defined as:
The rule of majority through majority vote. That is it. there is no mention of parliament or senate or congress etc. every capitalist state implements their own form of democracy. Elections are also not a feature of democracy. They are a means towards democracy. similarly they are a means towards islamic law too as shura and imam/khalif both are elected. elections are not the sole domain of democracy.
Majority rule is also lie. nowhere in the world is there a govt which was formed as a result of a majority vote the the whole nation.
The total voter turnout is never more than 60% and divide in two or more political parties, unless there is a white wash where 95% of the actual voters vote for one party, the resulting govt is never the representative of more than 40% people ever.
Check voter turnout stats for any country you want and then see the percentage of votes the winning party got.
Hence,
1) In a so called democratic state the elected govt is almost never the representative of the majority.
2) If they dont represent the majority any laws they make are minority rule not majority rule.
This logic is undeniable. Talk rationally and based on logic. lets see if anyone can prove this wrong.
…………
back to Islamic state and shaira law. It is based on divine laws whose bases cannot change only as new scenarios emerge, the interpretation and implementation can change which was more than successful for 1000 years of khilafat. any law other than sharia therefore is not divine, be it from democracy or socialism etc. majority rule, peoples rule etc all crap. I just proved above that it is next to impossible to achieve.
The highest voter turnout in us history was 64% in 1960. Kenedy won by a margin of 0.1%. Although Nixon took more states. Now that mean kenedy was the representative if 32% americans at most.
How the hell is that majority vote or majority rule????
A system that contradicts its definitions and foundations.
Waiting for comments from you guys (and cursing from a few :P)
Salam!
Freelance Sahib,
By democracy, we usually mean a government elected / selected by people and if necessary, kicked-out / destroyed by the other people. Both of these actions need certain rules and regulations to avoid anarchy. Hence, “elections” are held….
In Australia, all nationals are “forced” to vote. Now there’s a new word in the dictionary by Farid Zakria (the new CNN guy) and it’s called, "Liberal
Democracy" ..
In most liberal democracies, decisions for the entire population are normally based upon a consensus of the majority. Such collective decisions make much more sense when they entail political compromise and consensus. Nonetheless, the majority rule serves best in situations when the decisions/preferences expressed by individuals are divided and when all other methods of conflict resolution fail </.
Evidently, the majority rule is not without some ugly consequences. One extreme, blatant, and painful example of the (misuse of majority rule is the Partition of India in 1947. In Pakistan, we have yet to demonstrate that the Partition was in the greater interest of the so-called imagined community of the South Asian Muslims.
I personally like the idea of “democracy” as it’s a classical “dispute resolution” methodology and very practical.
Yes, I understand your POV regarding the Majority-Minority Debate but let’s not forget idealism will not take us anywhere and people who do not vote might not vote because of “laziness, work and what not” although they might be affiliated with a certain political party. How many Democratic & Republicans actually turn out on voting days? You see those who didn’t voted will still be democrats or republicans? (arguable)….
freelance bhaya, give me an alternative? pls….LOL…btw, there’s no concept of Opposition in Shria Law…answers, answers!
Its freespeaker not freelancer :)
I understand what you said.
"Nonetheless, the majority rule serves best in situations when the decisions/preferences expressed by individuals are divided and when all other methods of conflict resolution fail" —- when all other methods of conflict resolution fail right? Agreed. In an Islamic state based on sharia law conflict will only arise when quran and hadith are not clear about a certain topic, and that is where ijtihad, ijma and qiyaas come in. These are based on best possible extraction of ruling on which, when a majority consensus is reached, called ijma, it is accepted.
Majority vote inside the representative authority like parliament and shura is fine if it is based on people choosing the best option. That is what happens in Islamic system too.
My point is that democracy cannot deliver a govt representative of the majority of the people most of the time unless everyone is forced to vote , which in it self is wrong since you are FORCING someone to do something .
Please try to understand that i am not a fanatic mulla who talks about islam by his perception and wishes to impose it on others like takfiri terrorists do.
What i am saying here is that if people spend a little time trying to understand the system of islam, instead of studying and badly defending democracy all the time, they will see that islam give a better system, more just, more progressive, and more reliable.
"give me an alternative? pls.LOL btw, there’s no concept of Opposition in Shria Law…answers, answers!" <—- Alternative is to study the system of islam with an un-biased mind and accept the flaws and criticism about democracy and secularism that anyone presents with rational and logical proofs like i have done. There IS a concept of opposition in sharia law. There is actually duty of the state and the people to make sure there are political parties which critically analyze every policy and challenge them in courts if they claim to have better policies extracted from same or maybe different set of rules from sharia. Humans are not perfect and therefore interpretation of sharia will keep evolving. This is contrary to the general belief that islamic state would stagnate and will not be able to progress due to failure to tackle new situations with new policies.
The laws of islam are fixed no douubt. how you interpret them for the benefit of people and the state is always up for debate. Again i would say check out islamic history, you will see many interpretations ans implementations of islamic law being changed by early khalifs which resulted in better handling of specific situations.
I love the example of the law for hand cutting taken away when there was shortage of food. hand cutting is ‘hadd’ meaning extreme punishment for extreme theft. not like mullas say cut every theifs hand. so khalif umar abolished the law for one year for stealing food because the state vowed to resolve the food shortage within a year.
There are many more examples and again, just like everyone cannot be expected to understand or be able to debate on things like wormholes, zero point energy, and relativity, similarly without some research on this topic, everyone cannot criticize the system of islam and its caliphate system as opposed to democracy. understand the theory of divine law and why it should be followed over man made law and how laws are extracted from it for state functioning.
I sense this discussion is turning civilized now where most of us are going to talk to each other instead of biting each other asses like we were in the beginning.
lol
Salam to all!
muffatabakwasi = freespeaker,
apni baan baa baan band kar, dushman dushman hota hai, mar daiy ya mar ja. dostri baat nahi karnay ka samjha.
bhashan na dai democracy ka. zaban chalana assan hai woh bhi muffat mai
muffaty mai bhookay kai 2 payt hootay hain, payt bharay ke zaban 2 hoti hain, tou bhi payt bhara hai .. !
Bus! The verdict is here…Ragu Bhai nay jo kah diya!
Speaking of democracy – most so-called democratic government ethnically cleansed and slaughtered Mohajir rights and the practiced was only stopped by a true Mohajir and a patriot General Pervez Mushraff. So far as I am concerned, fu*k them all ….
seskey bhai kyoon nahi aye tum sorry "app" ….!!!
Freespeaker Bhai Sahib, Valid Points but In my humble opinion (speaking from neutrality – there are many questions about your "alternatives"..)
Any system of government has certain elements that distinguish it from other governments. These elements concern themselves with 1) How the government is formed? 2) What are the institution of this government 3) How is this government changed?
In no period of Islamic history and in no document of Islamic literature do we find any such system laid down. The earliest political entity that we find in Islam is the confederation of Medinan Tribes under the leadership of our Holy Prophet (PBUH) based on a man made constitution known in history as the “Mesaq-e-Medina”. The constitution and the government that resulted from it was political and not spiritual mind you.
Muhammad Bin Abdullah (PBUH) commanding the confidence of the Muslims of Medina, was the natural leader of this arrangement. Each tribe was autonomous in most matters except in their dealings with each other. The final arbiter of that was the Prophet (PBUH) himself and he decided according to the existing laws of the time, without any divine intervention.
Even during the period of the pious Caliphate we see that the election of each Caliph was different from the other.
Consider this:
1) Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique (RA) was elected by notables after the demise of the Holy Prophet.
2) Hazrat Umar Bin Khitab (RA) was appointed by Abu Bakr and confirmed through “bait” by the rest.
3) Hazrat Usman Ghani (RA) was elected through an electoral college of 6 notables.
4) Hazrat Ali bin Abu Talib (KW) was the next obvious choice confirmed by the faithful
Islam as an ideology does not give a political system. Instead it seeks to reform the individual who can then go on to work diligently and honestly within the system. Political system is result of evolutionary thought, and not the result of ideology. Ideology thus works within the system to establish itself, but it is not concerned with the working of the system as such.
Islam as an ideology does not give a political system. Instead it seeks to reform the individual who can then go on to work diligently and honestly within the system. Political system is result of evolutionary thought, and not the result of ideology. Ideology thus works within the system to establish itself, but it is not concerned with the working of the system as such.
Basically, the khalifate is a sacred institution of Islam and the form of governance preferred by the shar`iah, nay, required. To compare it with democracy is totally false as the two are diametrically opposed… that Islam and Democracy are incompatible… in the case of which we will have to do away with Islam completely (because people like you have corrupted it) or you can expound upon the rational true Islam and state Democracy and Islam go hand in hand … saving both Islam and Pakistan. What is the meaning of Caliph first. Does he need to be elected, or he need to enforce himself. Because when you say democracy and caliphate are diametrically opposed, I presume you think army rule in the name of Islam is Caliphate. Or did I misunderstood you.
Second if you think, that Caliphate means, a central authority for Muslims. It has never been after Khulfae-Rashid.But was it present during Khulfa-e-Rashid.
If so then tell me who was the true Caliph, Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Amir Muawiya.
Pakistan’s Shria Law – My View…
According to Pakistan’s Council of Islamic Ideology states in its report that just 2 counts carry capital punishment in Islam. That for cold-blooded murder & spreading ‘terror or mischief on earth’.
Adultery carries symbolic flogging and just that…not stoning.
Unfortunately just one ‘out of context’ example is sited by misguided mullahs of the tradition of the prophet that is regularly misused to justify such barbaric acts. People forget that it was a case to punish a Jewish woman according to the laws of the Torah by the Jews. Remember that in Medina, at the time of the prophet, several communities co-existed each observing their own laws and traditions. That case had nothing to do with the Muslims or Islam; hence it can not be used as an example to inflict horrendous punishment on women.
@seskey
Clearly you have nothing sensible to say or add. Mavali ghunda wannabe who has no aim in life other than to be a gangster like the sub-standard indian gang movies. Let people discuss things. You can keep trying, you wont be able to make me deviate from the topic by posting such non-sense comments to piss me off.
"bhashan na dai democracy ka" <— you think its so cool you can talk like a red mouthed, pan eathing, filthy indian gangster from a substandard movie that only appeals to the intellectually challenged ones? Either talk about the topic under discussion right now or stay quiet. I bet you cant, so i’ll just ignore any further senseless posts from you. If you decide to come to the topic i would be happy to talk to you.
"<b>muffaty mai bhookay kai 2 payt hootay hain, payt bharay ke zaban 2 hoti hain, tou bhi payt bhara hai!"<— maybe by this you meant that i am not a victim of injustice and oppression and am some rich dude? sorry to disappoint you brother i’m an average middle class family member. By the way, catpitalism has oppressed and abused the people into this state. NEVER in Islamic state were the people so poor or opressed or didnt have jobs or had no good education locally. This is all a gift from your beloved democracy which is a sugarcoated way of implementing capitalism.
@barristerakc
Come on. I answered your questions thoroughly. I thought you would have something say after my last post. Dont you? "<b>most so-called democratic government ethnically cleansed and slaughtered Mohajir rights and the practiced was only stopped by a true Mohajir and a patriot General Pervez Mushraff. So far as I am concerned, fu*k them all" <— This is an ideological discussion not a political one. Are you using politics to change the discussion because you cant defend democracy or any other system against the perfection of Islam? Come on, dont give up yet.
What about tzaidi and balma? Anything to say in defense of democracy now?
Salam all
Bhai Sahib Buy One Get One Free (Freespeaker of Hyde Park),
I have given you detailed examples of flaws and undemocratic (yet very confusing) Shria form / Caliphate form of government.
The “lubay-lubab” of the discussion is that the democracy is tried and tested whereas, you alternative, the Capihate is impractical, confusing and undemocratic. Even the mullahs of Iran opted for western style of democracy instead of Caliphate.
To me it’s a choice between a 08 Reg – X-5 BMW 4×4 (top of the ranger) aka “Democracy” – tested and accepted or a donkey cart with no donkey (for the sense of direction)….(no witty answers of preferring a donkey cart)….the choice is obvious!
freespeaker sahib, with due respect – "pan eathing" is my culture of Hindustan – what’s wrong with it? (I do not eat pan myself but) it’s my culture and I will do anything to defend it. The Pisser-e-Zameen use this argument to degrade us and Bangalis! b*******!
wow – free-speaker everyone is free to speak, however I have no desire to compromise on the FACT – India is Enemy of Pakistan I would gladly and publically condemn people like Nida Fazli with no remorse., and would not loose a chance to throw stones and boots at them.
seskey, there are civilised ways of sliting the throats without pain, why are you proving yourself a low life like former and current Chief Justice(s) of Pakistan.
behave urself dude, street urchins & people who have access to PCs and blogs shall have some difference.
@barristerakc: I think most of us miss a very important point here … Democracy is not just elections … There are elections in an Islamic State too … Democracy is not defined by any system that has elections .. Democracy means the elected people MAKE the laws … where as in an Islamic System .. the elected people only IMPLEMENT the laws …
@seskey: Shamsi and freespeaker are right .. swearing and using low grade language only makes people take u less seriously ..
@Shamsi: rightly said … India is an Enemy of Pakistan.
shamsi saheb, mayree gali sai bari gali di ap nai mujhay chiefjustice kaha woh bhi dono ko combine kar deya.. mayra sans rok gaya khoon bhi na nikla aur mai wafat paa gaya, ifthekar kana hai aur dogar (gobar) 2 number hai, ap nai tou janab zebah kar deya, lagta hai ap iss blog kai dada abba ho
i will try kai ap ke suhbat ikhteyar karon aur ap ke tarha sai meethi meethi batayn karkay gala kaat doun, maan gaya janab maan gaya UMER Aur Tajarbay ka ko koyee challange nahi kar sakta, grandpa
@barristerakc
"The lubay-lubab of the discussion is that the democracy is tried and tested" <— tested to fail and cause misery and pain. I have statistically and theoretically shown you that democracy is a fools-gold kind of "dream on" concept which cannot to truly implemnted. Can you refute that democracy is a front for capitalism which has caused all the wars and bloodshed, and exploitation of weaker nations?
"whereas, you alternative, the Capihate is impractical, confusing and undemocratic. Even the mullahs of Iran opted for western style of democracy instead of Caliphate." <— confusing? maybe for you. everything is confusing at first until you try to understand it. again. being un-biased is the key. <b> Impractical ??? ummm… its more practical than any other ideology since it existed as a state for over 1000 years, whereas its competitor socialism died out as a state in less than 50 years and capitalism/democracy has shown its flaws and uselessness within the span of the last 200 years at max. If you dont want to believe in history, then its more practical theoretically too since divine laws would always be better than laws made out of human intellect. logically also, its more practical because a state which does not allow exploitation of people based on their necessities would always be more welcome and be stronger than others. I can go on.
"To me it’s a choice between a 08 Reg – X-5 BMW 4×4 (top of the ranger) aka “Democracy” – tested and accepted or a donkey cart with no donkey (for the sense of direction)….(no witty answers of preferring a donkey cart)….the choice is obvious!" <— look… you are showing your bias again. Khilafah laster more than 1000 years in great condition and democracy which has no perfect example in the world because every democracy has to keep invading others or keep exploiting its own people to survive since it is not based on divine law or nature but on lies and deception just like it calls itself majority rule while i have proved in my earlier post that it is almost impossible for a democracy to be a majority rule.
"Any system of government has certain elements that distinguish it from other governments. These elements concern themselves with 1) How the government is formed? 2) What are the institution of this government 3) How is this government changed?" <— yes agreed. system of government and ideology are two different things. islam is an ideology and caliphate is a system of govt through this ideology. you can have a so called democracy where people vote representatives and elect a ruler but the only law impletmented is sharia law and no law is made from any other source excpet sharia then that is also an islamic state. I am not an avdocate of only khilafah. Any system which does not allow man-made legislation based on anything except sharia is an Islamic system and i support it. By the way, there is no sure shot answer from democray’s perspective either, for the questions you have asked. govt is formed by electing a president in usa, while in india and pak it is done by electing parliment where the majority stake holding party selects a prime minister from themselves. hence demcracy does not define how govt is to be made. Its all done differently everywhere. Same with islam. do correct me if im wrong and lets discuss.
"<b>based on a man made constitution known in history as the Mesaq-e-Medina. The constitution and the government that resulted from it was political and not spiritual mind you." <— the prophet (peace be upon him) defined laws just like i am saying islamic state will. the laws are BASED on shaira laws and nothing else. Look at the points in it. <i>Point#23 Whenever you differ about a matter it must be referred to God and to Muhammad. This clearly shows that there is no law to be made or matter to be settled other than from sharia :)
There are no points in misaq e madina based on anything else other than shaira of that time.
"The final arbiter of that was the Prophet (PBUH) himself and he decided according to the existing laws of the time, without any divine intervention." <– already point 23 has been mentioned above which answers your allegation. divine intervention is something else bro and i never said divine intervention makes laws in an islamic state.
"<b>Even during the period of the pious Caliphate we see that the election of each Caliph was different from the other." <— i can every easily point out such discrepancies about selection of head of govt in democratic govts too.
1) Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique (RA) was elected by notables after the demise of the Holy Prophet. <— like a parliament selecting a PM
2) Hazrat Umar Bin Khitab (RA) was appointed by Abu Bakr and confirmed through “bait” by the rest. <— that is incorrect. he was NOMINATED not APPOINTED. Bait of the majority of representatives of people or by majority of people directly decides a khalif in normal circumstances.
"Islam as an ideology does not give a political system. Instead it seeks to reform the individual who can then go on to work diligently and honestly within the system" <— within the system? Every ideology gives a political system brother. Have you not read the hundreds of ayaat and hadith about social system, economic system, imam being the leader and he too not being followed if he implements other than sharia? etc etc
"<b>Political system is result of evolutionary thought, and not the result of ideology. Ideology thus works within the system to establish itself, but it is not concerned with the working of the system as such.that Islam and Democracy are incompatible…"<— yes… islam is an ideology while democracy is a form of govt.
"in the case of which we will have to do away with Islam completely (because people like you have corrupted it) or you can expound upon the rational true Islam and state Democracy and Islam go hand in hand …" <— i didnt get what you are trying to say, except blaming me of corrupting islam or democracy or both… :S
"What is the meaning of Caliph first. Does he need to be elected, or he need to enforce himself. Because when you say democracy and caliphate are diametrically opposed, I presume you think army rule in the name of Islam is Caliphate. Or did I misunderstood you." <— you misunderstood me dear brother. Again i am pro-islamic-state not only pro-caliphate. IF there can be any other form of implementing islamic state i shall agree to it.
Now, khalif has to be elected under normal circumstances. elected by the majority of the people and then given bayt by the rest is the best condition. Otherwise the people can elect representatives from amongst them and these representatives can elect the khalif as per majority vote/bayt and then the rest have to give bayt. however in a worse case scenario when there is some really crazy conditions going on, a khalif can seize power directly and ask for people’s bayt. If they give bayt to someone else he will become the khalif and this seizer will be removed. That is my understanding from all that i have studied.
"Second if you think, that Caliphate means, a central authority for Muslims. It has never been after Khulfae-Rashid.But was it present during Khulfa-e-Rashid." <— It was still an islamic state where no laws other than those extracted from sharia were implemented.
"If so then tell me who was the true Caliph, Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Amir Muawiya."<— thats like asking who was the real president, clinton or bush. both. obviously one after the other.
"Pakistan’s Shria Law – My View…" <– paksitan has no sharia law bro. Our constitution says "man has the power to legislate" and we allow interest banking.
"According to Pakistan’s Council of Islamic Ideology states in its report that just 2 counts carry capital punishment in Islam. That for cold-blooded murder & spreading ‘terror or mischief on earth’." <— if they cite this with credible references from sharia i agree with them.
"<b>Adultery carries symbolic flogging and just that…not stoning. <– adultry has types defined in islam, adultry between both un-married, one unmariied and other married and third is when both are married elsewhere. all have different punishments. stoning is only for when both people are mariied elsewhere and are cheating on their spouces.
"hence it can not be used as an example to inflict horrendous punishment on women." <— A criminal is a criminal whether man or woman. Do not try to use sexist tactics int his discussion. man, woman, whatever, there are laws for every thing. If as you said it can be proved through islamic shaira refernces that a certian punnishment or any other law is wrong that is ijtehad, ijma, and qiyas come in. Islamic state as necesary system in place to deal with such issues like the need for changing a law.
dude… listen… if you have ideological objections lets discuss them.
I hope i have clarifies some misunderstanding and a few misconceptions.
waiting for response.
salam all!
You make the weakest point Sir. I am not here to issue judgment letters.
The biggest testimony supporting my point is that Democracy is thriving in more then 100 countries (in some forms) and your Caliphate is no-where to be seen ….” …
@freespeaker: Bhai sahib, other then the 4 righteous caliphs, if you are saying that rest of them were nominated and were votted (bait) by the Muslims then you are totally wrong.
Since Amir Mauwiya enthroned, the caliphate nominations were given on hereditary grounds. Amir Mauwiya son, Yazid attacked Kaaba and Medina during his second year of rule, needless to mention his other crimes, the whole Abu Sufiyan bloodline was like that ………….. then came banu Abbas, who were no less then banu Ummiyah ………… Ottoman caliphate ………… you can still visit Turkey and witness the remains of the lavish life they used to live on expenses of muslims during their time. If you want I can give you account of each and everyone of them through the most reliable historian, ‘ibn-e-tabri’, so please stop comparing the so called Islamic caliphate system with democracy.
Democracy is the based on the principal of selecting among the people and empowering them to make legislation and implement it in the best interest of the people. Isn’t that exactly what Islam has taught us???
Whatever you are trying to prove here, simply leads to whatever Tehrik-i-Talibaan Pakistan is trying to implement in Northern Pakistan ………….. but you hear it and hear it loud ………….. there is no place for taalibs in Pakistan, specially in Karachi.
"The biggest testimony supporting my point is that Democracy is thriving in more then 100 countries (in some forms) and your Caliphate is no-where to be seen" <—- by saying thriving democracies do you take into account the percentage of people below the poverty line in these countries, the amount of crime there, the amount of economic exploitation, the rising taxes, the lack of freedom of expression etc?
every "thriving" democracy of yours (usa, india, brittan, france, germany) are downing in problems. false economies liek usa and india where the state is in billions or trillions in debt cannot be called thriving can they?
tzaidi,
i am talking about an islamic state where the head of state and council of representatives will be elected. how is that even comparable to tehreek-e-talibaan pakistan who are takfiri idiots who want to impose their will adn their interpretation of islam on others without room for representaives deabating on interpretations etc?
democracy, is not only what you have mentioned above, it allows for exploitative laws to be created and implemented. if you refer above i have already proved democracies represent minorities whose interests are safeguarded.
can you argue with that?
@freespeaker: Yes, I can argue with that ……… whatever I have mentioned in my previous post on democracy, that’s exactly what democracy is, in simple layman’s term. Whatever you have mentioned on having high rate of crimes and population below poverty line has nothing to do with the concept of democracy. High crimes and poverty are related to the society norms and situation of law and order. These are two different things.
If democracy is implemented in true sense, (that is having an opposition party’s involvement in legislation and other matter (which ensures checks and balances) then implementation of law through the society members) then only a country can have ideal socio-politic-economic condition in a country…………….. am I right? Correct me if am wrong!!!
If you want example of whatever I have written in above paragraph, then I can name Singapore, Malaysia, Greenland, Canada, etc.
tzaidi, you are missing a point here .. like i said in my last post "Democracy means the elected people MAKE the laws … where as in an Islamic System .. the elected people only IMPLEMENT the laws …" the laws are from Allah .. who is perfect .. so the laws coming from Him are perfect … unlike humans .. who are not perfect .. and the laws coming from them are in no way comparable to the laws coming from the Creator.
@talha aziz: That’s exactly my point is, when you refer to Islamic Calphite then its not restricted to Khalafat-e-Rashida. Its includes all the caliphs till Ottomans. Other than the four rightly guided ones, no one implemented the Rule of Allah on the earth, its was simple politics among the rival clans.
My point is, that the countries listed in my last post have implemented the democracy in some-what true sense and their facts and figures shows that its working.
Where is Islamic rule? be it Iran or Saudia, (both champions of Islam) portray that they have implemented sharia law, but that’s just on the face of it, both countries have a long history of human rights violation and have parliament / shura to support the legislative implementations. Whereas the other countries (mentioned in last post) have a very clean record.
I hope you understand my point. I was never against the true sharia law implementation, but it was always used as a political tool to get the votes and make governments, none ever even tried to implement one.