Going too far


Will we ever stop proving to the world that we are from Mars? Once again we, in our egoism of nationalism (which will suddenly disappear once 14th August is over) forced us to act foolishly. What’s wrong with Amitabh I wonder in that Telefun Ad. that has been the talk of town now? I wonder what sort of mentality we have. We can afford to have plunderers (Nawaz, Zardari & co.), terrorist (Altaf bhai), murderers, people who attacked supreme court & all those evils of our land along with flag but not a man who is far more respected then those mentioned. We can have all ill morale govt. officials with that flag who are more of “firoon’s” of this land in this era. We can even have a governor who has got 7 cases against him in murder cases. We can have people like Admiral Mansoor ul Haq, we can have all evil Chaudhry’s/Wadera’s/Nawab’s/Sardar’s of our land with that flag but no we cannot have a man who is respected world wide “just because” he is from across the border.

We came to know that “A place alongside the flag is reserved only for our own heroes “(Mirza Asif Baig). Does this not imply that at some point in time Nawaz & Benazir and co. were our heroes because we had all the kinds of flags with their photos along?

I must pay tribute to YO YO for saying this : ( HERE)
“What really ticks me off is the ARMY/AIRFORCE/NAVY OFFICERS MESS TV rooms. They are running mostly indian music channels and Indian films. Young or old armed forces officers (who are tranined and paid to protect us from india mostly) love Bollywood “.

No, I am not saying we need to be hypnotized by India or else, in fact there is little to be impressed by that country. It’s just that it baffles me how short versioned we can get. The whole world must be laughing at us by now. If all the fuss is about copyrights and such technical aspects, that’s fine. There is a point. But if the case is different then I guess we as nation need to mature very fast. Educated ones first.

50 Comments so far

  1. SWA (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 5:28 am

    Like I said in the other thread:
    Theres nothing wrong with appreciating India or having bhai chara with your Indian friends, but theres something known as too close for comfort. Dont go so blindly into being Indianized that you lose your own selves.

    I support the action of the govt. 100% in this case.

  2. Tee Emm (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 6:14 am

    Personally, I’d hate seeing both the corrupt political rot *as well as* the big B besides the sacred green Flag. As noted by SWA, the flag, specially in the month of August, bears a special feeling that we all understand and appreciate.

    Finally, I was wondering that nobody on the forum is actually talking about the mafia itself – Telefun. In my professional experience, I was once at the Corporate Customer Center of PTCL Regional Head Quarter where a poor man was litrally crying. His ordeal was that his children had repeatedly called the 0900 number of the service and the bill happened to have crossed Rs 5,000 just for this number. He was a ‘chowkidar’ at a house and his master was to arrive back and the phone was disconnected and he feared a backlash and financial deduction. At that time, the call rates for the service were even higher, Rs 40 per minute I guess.

    Lately, we had a resume of a young man who was working with Telefun. In the interview, the lad was asked why do you want to leave your current organization. His answer was remarkable – ‘My conscious does not allow me to work with these fraudsters anymore’.

    PTA later realized what a mafia this and other few companies are turning into. They put an upper limit of Rs 14.07 on the max rate PRS (Premimum Rate Service) could have. This is now prevailing with Telefun and the me-too Phonemag service.

    Because the PRS service and its *impacts* are not known to everyone, the service keeps on traping unsuspecting users from the teeming 15 million people of the city who would almost never return after falling in the trap for the first time.

    In UK and NorthAm, PRS services are bound to have bold warnings about their expensive rates. True, PRS services in Telefun do the same on their printed ads in *very* fine print. However, in the form of the FM Radio Sponsorship, they are very cleverly avoiding this warning requirement. Worst of all, when the popular RJs on the major FM channels repeatedly mentions the number, they skip the warning which gets more unsuspecting users into the trap – at least for once.

  3. stupid (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 7:16 am

    amitabh and pakistani flag makes no f**king sence why dont your understand that

  4. Zami (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 7:46 am

    Just to set some record straight!!. MB your comments and quite frankly it seems your mentality is quite racist against MQM/Mohajirs in general.

    Every sensible person knows that the current Governor cases were all political cases (murder, law&order whatever you cal them) when the Punjabi Army of Pakistan (along with the convenience of party in power Sindhi-PPP or Punjabi-PML) tried to eliminate another political party influence by creating thousands of fake cases against each party member and on top extra judicial killings of hundreds of innocent Mohajirs simply b/c they were Mohajirs. Check http://www.Karachipage.com

    FYI, in the 90’s, even Sattar Edhi had to flee Pakistan to London because he refused to kafun/dafun innocent Karachi kids in ginne bags dumped by our estemed intelligence agencies in different areas of Karachi. Go ask him what happened to him 90s!!

    Talk about PPP!! How one can also forget the PIA plane hijacking by the Terrorist PPP Jialeys!! and Killing of Murtaza Butto by his very own loving sister and Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto!

    Dude do your work, read history, look at the root-causes, then open mouth to your say what ever you want to say.

  5. Mariam (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 9:43 am


    Some of your claims maybe true but do check this Link too before calling everyone innocent. For other groups check here.

  6. Mariam (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 10:11 am

    I should clarify that I do not follow current politics in Karachi but this is what world see when MQM’s
    name come up. They have links like these

    Arrest & Arms recovery from MQM workers
    Yearwise detail of MQM’s atrocities

    I think MQM lost its chance when people elected them, they can do so much
    better with so many votes but what they did they make each and everyone of their
    voters life miserable. They burned exam papers, ask for monthly battha and what
    not from their voters. Karachiites first victimized by central govt. and when
    they trusted a leader (even honored him by calling Peer Sahib) he backstabbed
    If any of you think this is untrue. Please make your leader who is living in
    London to make these organization to correct this info.

  7. inca (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 10:45 am

    i agree with mariam idont like MQM or any
    political party this is all business they all
    are making money all this shit is about money
    but there is nothing worng with innocent mohajir
    people of karachi the are just trying to make
    both ends meet they are like every other pakistani so hating them is just a racist
    attitude which has no justification.

  8. Dan (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 11:59 am

    what pisses me off most is this left-wing far-too-liberal attitude shown by some of the posters on here.

    I have 3 of India’s leading national dailies sitting on my desk, almost ALL of them carrying articles on how all contact should be snapped with Pakistan, on Why India should do an Israel and attack Pakistan, on Musharraf being the biggest terrorist etc.. you get the gist… and it isn’t just the editors and columnists, there are sections for joe public to send in their letters and the hate is plain and clear.

    And yet we cannot help bending over backwards for our ‘Indian friends’

    I strongly believe in peace between the two nations but being a media person I’ve noticed how blatantly biased the Indian media is. Take for example the recent foiled attack in London – British newspapers and those from around the world are full of praise for the Pakistani Intelligence services for their role in foiling this attack, however, our ‘friendly’ neighbour country’s media completely forgets to mention ISI’s role, and instead chooses to make the most out of this situation by effectively calling for the ‘terrorist nation’s head.

    Stop bending over backwards. There’s nothing wrong in being patriotic and nationalist. There’s nothing wrong with taking pride in our own rich culture and heritage.

    There IS everything wrong with having an Indian’s face on our national flag, at present, atleast.

  9. MJ (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 12:02 pm

    well, guys this is not a political discussion. It doesn’t matter because every political party is there just to make money. and coming back to the topic,

    I support the decision of Karachi City Govt.

  10. Dan (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 12:11 pm

    Just saw this:

    The whole world must be laughing at us by now. If all the fuss is about copyrights and such technical aspects, that’s fine.

    Er.. no, no one’s laughing – people haven’t really got time for minor stuff like this and those who do have time, fully understand the nature of our relations with our ‘friendly’ neighbour and to them (as it was to me) this came as a bit of a surprise that AB’s face was actually put on the flag.

    An indian friend of mine (muslim) was watching the telly with me when they mentioned it on the news and her first reaction was – ‘damn right, why put it on the (pakistan) flag in the first place?’

  11. MB (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 12:11 pm

    @SWA: How we will be Indianized by showing a man of peace with that flag?

    @TEE MM: I fully agree with you when you talk about such companies. I think they are plundering the ill-informed common man but that’s a separate topic. This one is related to the issue of showing a hero’s pic with our flag, not considering who ever the company is.

    @STUPID: Why it doesn’t make sense?

    @ZAMI: It’s our attitude to label someone racist without understanding what was the pointed that was tried to be conveyed. Amazingly when Altaf bhai founded a party on a particular name (“Mohajir” Quami Moment) it never sounds racist to you. About other parties which you mentioned. They are all the same. I am with no one. About Edhi: We have no confirmed report or anything on that. Everyone can go on assuming or guessing its cause. Hakim Said murder? Ever heard of it bro? And please try to read and understand what really was intended to be conveyed.

    I would love to see common mohajir man doing some good work. I had criticized their leaders who are unfortunately a very criminal record, most of them, including Mr. Altaf. Now don’t come to me arguing the cases were not proved & etc. In a society where people settle in Saudi Arabia after plundering nation, enjoy vacations in Surrey after destroying nations fate, General settling in USA after humiliating nation, you cannot expect justice. You can only have tools to play with law. And they, all those, have quite many of with them.

    Amazingly Amitab is hero, for most of us when it’s not 14th August, & on 14th or in August he just becomes “across the country man”. We need to learn to be sensible.

  12. Dan (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 12:26 pm

    Amazingly Amitab is hero, for most of us when it’s not 14th August, & on 14th or in August he just becomes “across the country man”. We need to learn to be sensible.

    Sorry to be a pedant but forgive me if I’m wrong in saying that Amitab only PLAYS the role of a ‘hero’ in bollywood movies. He isn’t an actual life ‘hero’ cuz I can’t really remember if he’s actually done anything heroic.

    He is most probably a talented individual, an artist, which is why people respect him and admire his work.

    That doesn’t mean you can expect EVERYONE to respect him or admire him the same way, its only a matter of personal opinion. And this certainly doesn’t warrant him a place on our national flag.

    I found the original ad (saw the picture on here) to be offensive and by the looks of it, I aint alone.

  13. MB (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 12:44 pm

    Playing ones part in life in any role (teacher, doctor, artist etc.) with honesty is nothing less then a heroic achievement dear, specially in such difficult times & that too for so many decades. He may not be a hero for your correct reasons but you sure respect him. And so whats wrong with that respectable person with that flag.

    There is a BIG WHY. Why its offensive, no one is replying to that BIG WHY. What on earth is wrong with that.

  14. Dan (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 1:08 pm

    Oh I do respect him. Just as much as I’d respect any man who works hard for what he has.

    It was offensive because Mr bachan is considered the face of Indian Cinema. Get it mate? INDIAN Cinema – a country which at present is doing whatever it can, through diplomatic means and some not so diplomatic means to label our country (who’s flag we’re on about) as a terrorist state. Yesterday’s news: BJP (supported by almost half the indian populace, if not more) calls for India to attack Pakistan to stop what they call ‘terrorism’ in Kashmir.

    Instead of protesting against the comments of india’s largest political entity, atleast on official channels, we stick the face one of their Icons on our national flag. If that isn’t submissive mentality, I don’t know what is.

  15. Mariam (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 1:17 pm

    Hey MB,

    Not every Mohajir is a MQM supporter even in 90’s. Being born to parents who came from India, Mohajir word is too offensive for me too but this is the name given to all Pakistani who migrated from India by others. So its not Altaf brains creation. Though still it is not right to make a party with this name.

    Sorry MB can’t help you with Why as I don’t see anything wrong in it but I don’t live in Karachi so opinion doesn’t count.

  16. mansoor (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 3:26 pm

    for me, its a simple issue. Independence day is OUR day… celebrate it with born n bred PAKISTANIS! you can appreciate foreigners any other day of the year.. (aprt from 23rd March, 6th Sep, 25th Dec and 11th Sep).

    as for the MQM discussion.. no comments.. but i agree mostly with Mariams comments.

  17. zeeshan (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 5:56 pm

    The AD they were running on the T.V. where AB said something… that was fake! He didn’t even say that! :D Yeah it’s great they put off the damn thing! Gawd, I hate Bollywood!

  18. Erum (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 6:04 pm

    I’m quite shocked to read this post.

    MB – Maybe I can give you an answer of ‘ What’s wrong with Amitabh in that Telefun Ad’ etc.

    Last night there was a movie on one of the indian channels starring Amitabh as an Indian army officer. The name of the movie is ‘Ab tumhare hawale watan sathiyo’. Watch it and let me know if you were impressed by the movie and Amitabh’s acting talents. Btw, the movie directly humiliates Pakistani govt., the armed forces, ISI and our intentions. If you can’t get hold of the movie, try reading a review and you’ll know what im saying. It’s a slap on the face of our nation and we on the other hand don’t raise a voice against such movies. Rather, we praise them. No doubt, the indian efforts for Indo-Pak friendship are applaudable! So why not put a picture of a bollywood actor next to our flag on our independence day? So much for patriotism..

    I’m not instigating any kind of hatred towards our neighbours, but there’s a thing called self-respect and dignity which seems to be missing here.

  19. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 6:13 pm

    MB, I think Dan’s post shall be enough of an eye opener for you and your PEACEFUL ideas.

    We dont have peace with India, we are rather having peace talks, and when does two countries have peace talks? only when they are lacking it.

    A country in our neighbourhood, boasting an army of over 1.2 million men, probably the fourth strongest army in the world, with the fire power of ammunition as advances as an entire fleet of Sukhoi Su 33 fighter jets, multiple aircraft carriers, long range nuclear missles and still inclining to increase its military power and might, by having the second largest military budget in the entire world!

    Do you really belive that they have all these men employed to sing Pakistani National songs and present us with a drizzle of flowers by flying their Generation 5 fighter airplanes over our country on our independence day?? wake up mate, its still not too late.

    Do you have any idea who much Indians love us??? read Hindustimes daily and it will dawn on you. They are calling for international permission to persue Lashkar-e-Taiyabba inside Paksitan at the G8 Summit, just like Israel did with Hizbollah in Labenon…

    “Indian Actors biddign congrats to pakistanis on our national day”.. my bloody left foot!

  20. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 6:28 pm

    and as far as your WHY is concerned ask your grandfather who might have migrated from India in the midst of the hindus attacks on the trains coming to pakistan, ask you father’s friends in Lahore who might have seen Indian Armed Tanks patrolling on the streets of lahore early mornin in 1965, ask youself when the India demanded US military actions against Pakistan after 9/11.

    Amitabh never bid any congrats to us, and he never will.

    you know what Indian students read in their secondary school text books, that Jinnah was a crazy man who was responsible for divding our DHARTI MAATA. We correct their views on a daily basis and we have battle of words with them everyday here in UK, we are doing our best to make them view it from a different angle. If you term us as extreamists, then I think you wil term Indians as super-extreamists, IF YOU EVER GET TO MEET ANY INDIAN IN REALITY. sitting in your living room, watching them singing in the rain, dancing all over the place, might force you to believe that we have such lovable peaceful neighbours…They hate us as much as they love their own country.

    Still if are void of any self-respect what so ever and willing to BEG for peace do it on your own.

    We are proud of whatever we are, and we dont need to be patronized with the world peace bullshit.

  21. yo yo (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 7:22 pm

    VERYSMART…The point is not the BILLBOARD. The point is when we can idolize Bollywood actors the whole year. Then why can we not celeberate 14 August with them.
    Also your perception about INDIANs is very wrong. Most of them donot even think about Pakistan in their daily lives. I have found them more humble, helping and respectful than ordinary Pakistanis.
    Apart from all that I think we as Pakistanis should be mature enough to accept an indian actor as an actor. We did not lose our National honor when Amitabh’s picture was used on that Billboard. We lost it when we made banned Anti Pakistani movies a HIT in our own houses.

  22. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 7:58 pm

    Actually I’m shaking my head with disbelief that I am getting agreed with most of Mariam’s statments.

    Yes not every other urdu speaking person which was labelled as Mohajir actually belonged to MQM.Many Urdu speaking politicians actually still associate with other parties like PPP,Jamat Islami and Muslim League.I also second that Altaf got a really golden opportunity to do something for the people of this city but like it or not he had no ability to drive others in positive way.Still MQM’s policies appear foolish.The recent clash between mqm and arbab was like a children fight.

    I assume that MB is not cursing every other urdu speaking people as terrorists but its also fact that few people of other provinces did declare us terrorist nation and its called racism.I am also a Urdu speaking guy and i dont hesitate to call Altaf a terrorist.Lets be real.He is as moron as other politicians.My other fellow already mentioned terrorism act by PPP and allow me to mention terrorism act our PM Nawaz Sharif when he tried to stop Musharraf to land on Karachi.

    lets not become slaves of hypocricy.India is in our homes for years and even Indians know it well.This is why Sonia Gandhi cameup with statment that India didnt need to defeat Pakistan because they already did it by penetrating their culture among us.See how GEO,ARY ,INDUS and other networks foolishly promoting them among us.Thanks for our old VCR industry which already polluted us by showing us movies in 80s.whatever YOYO said which mentioned by MB too is damn right and this is what I was trying to tell Mansoor to stop singing praises about Army.

    There is no harm to show Amitabh but as someone said,do you ever face any indian in real life?or even on cyber world?I dont claim i meet indians personally byt yes I do get chances to talk Indians on Internet and i learn what they think about their own India and Pakistan.You would be surprised MB that all of our lame channels are officially banned in India and none of them whine about it.Speaking of friendship,I dont give a damn on such friendship which is one-sided.At one side we are declared terrorists by them and on other hand we are promoting them.Are they planning to show some Ad with Talat Hussain or Nadeem on their public roads and TV?Offcourse not because they dont want it.

    That’s the reason I would oppose the Ad,otherwise there is no harm.There is need to getrid of beyghariti.

  23. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 8:02 pm

    Amazingly when Altaf bhai founded a party on a particular name (“Mohajir” Quami Moment) it never sounds racist to you.

    What about Punjabi Pakhtoon Itehad(PPI) of Ghulam Sarwar Awan,Jiyay Sind Qomi Mahaz(JSQM)?Does it not reflec racism among punjabis,sindhis and pathans parties?

    As someone suggested,be neutral or make some studies before coming up with statments

  24. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 8:02 pm

    Amazingly when Altaf bhai founded a party on a particular name (“Mohajir” Quami Moment) it never sounds racist to you.

    What about Punjabi Pakhtoon Itehad(PPI) of Ghulam Sarwar Awan,Jiyay Sind Qomi Mahaz(JSQM)?Does it not reflec racism among punjabis,sindhis and pathans parties?

    As someone suggested,be neutral or make some studies before coming up with statments

  25. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 8:09 pm

    sorry for double post due to bad Internet connection.

    @Mariam:Fact sheet never tells facts =).I dont refute tht report but its also true thst several innocent urduspeaking people were targetted by Naseerullah Babar at that time.I personally witness one near old Relax Cinema Nazimabad No1 where I used to live that police order few guys to get out of mobile car and then opened fire on it.there are many other cases as well.But I would say that Altaf’s lame politics played a big part that we saw MQM haqiqi which was created by Army and govt of that time when Amir Khan left MQM after killing of Azim Ahmed Tariq.

  26. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 8:15 pm

    I am also pointing that the Billboard is just a symbolism of our psychological defeat that we have conceded.

    I dont know wht Indians have you met (must be southerners) but I am involved in doing large corproate deals with them for three years, and since then living day and night with a barrage of Insian students in my dorm, talking to them on a daily basis. I know wht the cross-section of Indians really do think about us.

    I cant say if its maturity or the mere lack of it, but I dont percieve a Japanese city painting a poster of Clark Gable on top of Japanese flag on their National Day.

    Liking the actors for their act is a very different thing, and letting them encroch the very boundries of our national identity is something absolutely unrelated.

    Wht will be next, probably some more of our Peaceful Pakistanis will suggest that since India has a better model of democracy, we shall let the Indian Government rule us aswell!!!!

    There can only be peace when we will assume our integrity, and reliance on ourselves, there can only be peace when I see Imran Khan’s poster painted on a Mumbai billboard at Indian national day.

    The views of some of Karachiites are the reflection of what success Indian dramas and media have achieved forcing us in near defeat, tearing the two nation theory right infront of that billboard.

    When will you guys step out of your fools paradise and La La Lands.

  27. YO YO (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 8:41 pm

    VERYSMART…Good to see you have a lot of exposure, so what do you suggest to lessen Indian influence in our daily lives? Islam has been ruled out as a way to preserve ourselves.

    Our nation’s men cannot live without Aishwariyas shaking ass. Most females idealize men who are like indian movie heroes as their future life partners.

    So my friend whats the solution? Islam was a strong enough reason we used in 1947 to seperate ourselves. Now what forces we have left?

  28. intrigued (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 9:28 pm

    Dear verysmart. You write:
    “you know what Indian students read in their secondary school text books, that Jinnah was a crazy man who was responsible for divding our DHARTI MAATA. ”
    I am doing research on this subject and would be really greatful if you could give me a reference to where this is. An exact quote woudl be wonderful and woudl be required for intellectual honest, but if not a referecne to which books (publisher and name please) calls Jinnah ‘crazy’ would be useful. I have heard this before too, but wanted to get an exact reference before I quote it in my writings, becasue otherwise it would just make me a liar and a hatemonger. Since you seem to have seen this, I would really really appreciate an exact reference. Thank you so much.

  29. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 10:42 pm

    I think Pakistan itself shall be the greatest reason of all. I think we must realize the importance of our country to ourselves, I knew an Afghani Family back in karachi, who were merchants in afghanistan before the war started and now they are living a shattered life in karachi, they used to say to me, that Pakistanis have no idea of the importance of their own country, all your realities are only valid till you have your own country, like if (ALLH forbids) its no more, then your property documents are of no value, your degrees are void, your bank accounts are no more, even things like your passport and your identity card will be equivalent to nothing. We will be un-named un-known pseudo-realities without our country.

    @Intriged; I just talked to my friend he said he vaguely remembers that its in the text book of history for either 7th or 8th standard in India

    you can find similar stuff in the very famous book “Freedom at Midnight”

    They believe that Jinnah Sahib wanted to become the governor General of India but when Nehru told him that he cant be the Governor General of India, Jinnah Sahib coined Pakistan in 1940.

    I explained to them that Quaid-e-Azam knew about his cancer and rejected to treat it and kept it hidden, because if hindus and the british finds out they will try to delay the creation of pakistan beyond his eventual death. A person with such amazing resolve, Jinnah knew that he cant enjoy being the highest authority of pakistan for too long, so this dismisses the fact that he divided India only to enjoy the perks of Presidency…. they are pretty impressed with this explaination.

    Actually in the Indian Religion, The concept of Dharti Mata is more than just a piece of land, its sacred and its boundries are dictated to them in their core believes, which are stretched from the boundries of persia to burma and from hindukush to vishakapatam. With this description you can realize that they feel that they have the eternal right to the land that we live in. they believe Sindhu Darya (Indus) to be sacred and some sects have some of their rituals including Sindhu Darya as the basic requirement (like offerings to their gods and ashnan in Indus)

    How on earth can we assume that someone with such mentality can come forward with a peace accord???

  30. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 10:46 pm

    In my post, read “Indian Religion” as Hindu Religion.

  31. YO YO (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 11:04 pm

    VERYSMART…you have an interesting perspective with the Afghani example. But I see Pakistan was made for the Muslims of India. Now the Muslims of India donot want to live like Muslims but they want to live like Indians. They adore Indians.
    So why did we make Pakistan in the first place. This negates that Pakistan cannot be a reason itself. Pakistan was made for a reason. And the reason was Islam. Which protects the rights of muslims and non muslims equally.

  32. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 11:32 pm

    I see that we both are making the same point. This is what I am trying to point to MB and Umer Zaman who also commented on some different post by saying “what difference does it make”

    This is what I am trying to communicate that it makes all the difference.

    If I am able to understand your comments correctly, then it shows that Islam is no more the reason cause Indian Muslims are more Indians now, rather than considering themselves muslims first.

    So if they can concieve themselves as Indians, then why cant we concieve ourselves as Pakistanis. And my answer to this is still the same as my earlier post, which is also narrated by Gen. Musharraf; “Pakistan First”

  33. verysmart (unregistered) on August 13th, 2006 @ 11:37 pm

    Dear Intrigued,
    Can you send me some of your work ?? I would like to read some research aswell.

  34. MB (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 1:44 am


    I really appreciate you strong feelings about your land dear but as YO YO said & I, using my personal experience will confirm that Indians are more humble, helping and respectful than ordinary Pakistanis. I have had a chance of talking to them and working with them & believe me they are more humans then we are. You may satisfy your ego by calling their attitude a fake one but so be it. They are succeeding & they did not stop from acting like one.

    As for the military build up that you mentioned, India has every right to do what ever it feels like necessary to defend its own country. They are an independent nation in words and in spirit & not like us, disintegrated souls who follow USA one day, Saudia the other day, Taliban the next day and so on with no self sense of vision or path to follow even after 59 year. Learn to accept reality dear. It’s a sign of an independent nation to do what ever it takes to secure it self. You like it, cry over it or feel happy. They don’t need to give a damn about it.

    One more thing: I did not say “what difference does it make”. I said what’s wrong wit it. Ponder over the two sentences they are quite different.

    And AB did not need to encroach boundaries of our national identity dear. Our Army is a one good example of what our friend has already mentioned.

    And the text books that we said of as being too anti Pakistani. Do our books not contain the same filth against them? And all the lies that are taught to a Paki student from the beginning. The shame act of Mahmood Ghaznavi is glorified, regarding Soomnaath. Lets ponder on ourselves a little brother before we can boast a comparison to our neighbor who has left us leaps & bounds in many fields.

    As for the mohajir thingy & that other nationalist movements they are in same category but no further comments on this as it’s not the topic originally.

    @ Intrigued

    We would love to see some insight from your side. May be that you help us broaden our perspective.

  35. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 2:27 am

    I, using my personal experience will confirm that Indians are more humble, helping and respectful than ordinary Pakistanis

    maybe because you were being so humble rather agressive with them thatswhy they returned you in same way?

  36. verysmart (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 2:30 am

    Dear MB,
    Your comments are well recieved, and I am happy to realize that you are different person than what I have earlier precieved of you.

    First, I shall mention that the company in the highlights has itself maintained that it was its mistake and has removed the screens already. So the idea of any righfulnes to the campaign has already died with the retreat of its initiator. SO stamping it as a wrong step is the only way to put an end to it.

    Many important issues are being raised and you have yourself answered some of the questions. As far as following discrete aspirations are concerned I have maintained that our aspiration shall be only Pakistan and nothing more.

    Including the past sagas of following others, we must not add the Indian inspiration to the tally.

    With the glorification of idols in the books, I suggested that the propaganda war is on the both sides, and they percieve us as much as an enemy as we do , so where is the peace. None of us has read any Indian text books ourselves so we cant comment on what do they glorify against us.

    As far as its the right of India to build up its military to ensure its security and integration of its border. It is my right and our right to protect the integrity of our Ideologies and Believes and to secure the symbolism of our nationalism by not letting anyone repeat any FRIENDLY mistake ever again

    I invite you to really ponder on what we must do from here onwards, as the inspiration for the day today.

    Shall we give up and suggest to the world that claiming Pakistan was a mistake by promoting Indian faces on our National flag, or shall we start thinking towards a more progressive path and eleborate the Pakistan thought. Pure and the way it should have been, not contaminated by Talebans, Saudia, America or India either.

  37. Mariam (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 6:30 am

    People sometimes forget that businesses run on profit. If certain person is loved by targeted public then one go with it. In this case I do not have any problem with Amitabh or whoever is the most popular among Karachiites. Now if it is meant for 14 August then I have few issues but still it is up to the resident Karachiites to decide. Personally I would like a photo of Abdul Sattar Edhi or Ahmed Faraz. Maybe there are more worthy people but really I’m out of date about Karachi’s current situation. I still didn’t get it why there is so much hoopla about Amitabh in the nation where we still do not give due regard to our only Noble Laureate Dr. Abdus Salam. Forgetting that he did a great job which no one after that able to do it. What if we didn’t like his beliefs he is a scientist and a Pakistani. That’s all should matter.


    As for your remarks about Amitabh, well he is an actor. If you pay him well enough he’ll even act in a movie against Indian Army. I thought you’ve read all about Pakistani Army’s history which is I’m ashamed to say is not that virtuous. Army’s job is to take care of the nation’s defense but not to rule it. If few generals are too eager to rule it then they should get elected as a civilian. History showed when Army is too busy with running the country they’re unable to take care of borders effectively as they’re too busy to control the masses. We all know when there is no accountability people tend to go too far and in the long run system attracts criminals. Just imagine what would be Pakistan like when it is ruled by the popular leaders through fair elections. Some people say this is not the time I’ll say Army is winning.

    Very Smart,

    This is not news and lately almost everyone doing research on this topic. Maybe little article helps you a little.


    Actually I’m shaking my head with disbelief that I am getting agreed with most of Mariam’s statments.

    It just shows that we both uphold the truth. I don’t know about you but it was hard to learn about truth in Pakistan. I hope you did shake your head for too long ;).

  38. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 1:41 pm

    @mariam:I have no dushmani from you and I hope you also not eager to shoot me one day.Offcourse I would agree with anyone who is really exposing ground reality.I do know how we karachiites lost several learned engineers and doctors in that *war*.While I disagree with you in a bit that it was not 100% MQM’s fault and yes there were forces who wanted to create trouble,the end result ,lots of industries got shifted in other parts of Pakistan.Someone might say that its Punjab fault and all did by Punjabis,ok fine lets suppose its true for few moments but what you(MQM) gave to your voters and fans when you came into power twice in 90s?As you said and every moderated person would agree that the chance MQM got was never enjoyed by any other political party.After Jinnah,Altaf came out as a charismatic personality(Like it or not) but he coudn’t cash this chance for the nation which he called Muhajir.

    I hope you did shake your head for too long ;).

    I’m still shaking:).Yes there are many things which many of us are aware but a bit risky to discuss on public forums but we can’t keep our eyes shut.I already condemn the holiness of our Army which is treated as Angel in our society.

  39. Glow Subz (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 5:04 pm

    There are more Muslims living in India than Pakistan and that bloody divide has only made their Lives miserable.
    The mighty bloodshed was supported by British otherwise both nations were living with peace & harmony for about a Millenium. Pakistan is a product of jageerdars, waderas & nawab soch. Do you know about the founders of Mulsim league? they all belong to feudal lords. They knew they are going to loose their power once british left and it’s going to be democratic government. See what has happend in this 59 years we are still under the influence of these feudal lords.

  40. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 6:31 pm

    Glow,I dont know whether you are a Pakistani or Indian but please be clear that partitioned has happened and now Pakistan is not a part of India anymore.So there is no need to regret or feel sorry tht India got divided.History of India tells that India was never as a country before British raj and every state used to be governed independantly.

    Yes there are more muslim in India but its also fact that they are always taken as outsider by non-muslims specially the hindus.I dont actually know the background of muslim leagues member but i am damn clear about Jinnah’s sincerity about new nation.

  41. Dan (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 6:59 pm

    Glow, while I agree that the feudal system which unfortunately our leaders didn’t dismantle earlier on – has hurt this country the most – I do think its a bit irrelevent in the context of this debate.

    [b]The creation of a separate state for Muslims was and will always be the best thing that could’ve happened for us.[/b]

    Have a look at the (August 5th I think) copy of TIME – there’s a good piece on India’s economic progress – and how the indian muslims feel left out of it. Unemployment is 30% higher among muslims than among the hindu citizens of this ‘secular’ state. Illetracy and poverty are also higher on a similar scale. Despite being 20% of the population, only 1.8% of all government employees are Muslims.

    Muslims in India even today are discriminated against on a daily basis, and often subjected to humiliating treatment. This is not a myth as it has been confirmed by a number of Indian muslim friends of mine who have personally experienced a number of instances of discrimination because of their faith – and from what I have seen from my (few) travels to that country.

    I can’t remember who’s said this but I’ll quote anyway ‘Hind ke musalman azad hain lekin Islam azad nahee’

    Nothing pisses me off more than people who claim we would’ve been better off as a single state.

    If thats how you feel, don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. We might not be ‘perfect’ (who is?), but we’ll get close. Ta.

  42. Glow Subz (unregistered) on August 14th, 2006 @ 8:42 pm

    Dear DAN, the statistics you just quoted strengthens my statement that divide has made Indian Muslim’s life even more miserable. the insurgency which Pakistan is practising for about 1.5 decade has made it even worse.

    Do u know before that armed movement in kashmir Pakistan’ economoy was fast moving ahead of India, now see what has happened?

    Just think a bit, count the total Muslim populace of Sub continent (Pak,BD,India). The resulting amount could have easily helped indian muslims escape their current discrimination

    On the other hand the mind boggling defence expenditure of both countries has produced largest number of poeple living under poverty line. No divide, no defence expenditure, no army being fed on self-created never-ending issue only to rule on us.

    hind ke musalman azad hain lekin Islam azad nahee’

    Have u ever visited India? I think you need to visit there once.

    Nothing pisses me off more than people who claim we would’ve been better off as a single state.
    How did u deduce that i am after it?

  43. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 12:39 am

    The shame act of Mahmood Ghaznavi is glorified, regarding Soomnaath

    I think this article does clarify and also we read in books about that destruction.


    Lets ponder on ourselves

    Yes we should.Did you ponder when you degrade pakistanis by saying they are less humble?Offcourse you shouldnt expect kind words for yourself when you call your country community ‘terrorists’.

  44. MB (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 11:02 am

    I completely agree with GlowSubz that “Pakistan is a product of jageerdars, ……influence of these feudal lords.” But I also agree to Adnan that “partitioned has happened and now Pakistan is not a part of India anymore. So there is no need to regret or feel sorry that India got divided “. So let’s carry on with reality. But when GlowSubz say “Just think a bit, count the total Muslim populace of Sub continent (Pak,BD,India). The resulting amount could have easily helped Indian Muslims escape their current discrimination”, I am although not convinced how that was possible (may be GS will explain in next comment) but that is a very strong point, I must say.

    I read that and other ones too but no explanation is qualified enough. It seems as if a reality good or bad has happened and now we Muslims are trying to justify it. Why just not accept that Mahmood Ghaznavi did a mistake, its plain & simple. We may keep on formulating a justification but then Taliban can also, with regards to their shameful act in Afghanistan when the destroyed very sacred & holy as well as historic statues.

    And I did not degrade Pakistani’s. I told what I experienced and may of my friends did.

  45. ZY (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 11:32 am

    Excuse me, let me remind all of u about the topic every one has gone too far in comments, from where did the ‘Muslims’ or ‘Non-Muslims’ come in to the topic. By now everyone must have forgotten that they are Pakistani. Can I ask all of you simple question: how many among us watch Pakistani channel’s on TV. About 10% over all, that includes those who don’t watch cable channel. We all, even I watch western or Indian channels. The ones who watch Pakistani channels are those who are “SO CALLED LOWER CLASS” or they don’t have any option/facility of watching the other channels. So please stop defending our fake & clumsy love for our land. All of us should try to be what we are. I still don’t get it what is wrong with AB coming that Add .When we all dress eat, walk and talk like we from MARS.

  46. GLOW SUBZ (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 12:41 pm

    i think except PTV every Pakistani channel is showing Indian Programming.

  47. Dan (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm

    So wait a sec, watching Indian channels makes you less-pakistani?

    Thats laughable.

    Watching indian tv channels isn’t to do with choice, its a lack of options. Our channels cannot match the quality their programming and that is more to do with the cultural and historical aspects, as well as financial since India with its 1 bn population is an attractive prospect for investment (MTV, Star network etc, all foreign companies with ‘indian’ channels)

    I’m sure if our channels were doing a good enough job, we would rather watch them.

    People don’t watch indian tv bcuz its Indian, they watch it bcuz they find it more entertaining. Same with those who watch american soaps or british comedies. End of the day if there’s a better quality product on the market shelf with a made in India tag, buying it doesn’t make you any less pakistani or fall in love with India.

    SB – regarding your earlier post – No I don’t think the combined muslim populations of Pak, India and Bangladesh would’ve been able to achieve anything at all. If anything, we would all be much more indianised, celebrating holi and rakshabandhan, talking in Hindi and losing our ‘muslim’ identity as I’ve seen with my indian mates (no offence if any of you read this)

    1947 was our one chance of establishing our own state and I’m glad Jinnah took it.

    Have u ever visited India? I think you need to visit there once.

    I have visited India four times since my first visit in 2003 – the last being earlier this year. Remind me, whats the status on the Babri mosque case? Its funny that they haven’t yet reached a conclusion – considering the Mumbai bombings case will have the verdict announced in about 3 weeks. Howcome the Indian media completely ignored when 100+ houses (muslim owned) were torched in riots in UP in June this year? 2 muslim girls were also burnt alive in this incident. Why did the Indian police in kashmir shoot and kill protestors against some brothel that was being run by the police chief? Why were their massive protests against desecration of mosques, again in kashmir, in May this year? Why is child prostitution such a rampant family business in Hyderabad, mainly in Muslim families? Why was a mosque nearly burnt to the ground in Mau last month? Howcome BJP’s leaders openly express their reservations about the future of Muslims in their country and even admitting ‘there is no place for muslims in Secular india’ which in itself is an ironic statement?

    Nothing pisses me off more than people who claim we would’ve been better off as a single state.
    How did u deduce that i am after it?

    It certainly sounds as if you’d rather be an Indian muslims than a Pakistani, from your posts. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood you.

  48. Adnan (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 2:51 pm

    Dear MB I believe you have no some dushmani from us but when making terrorists to fellow pakistan(even if hes an evil) could make one to think otherwise.No hard feelings.

    MB keeping stuff in a sacred place like Temple is not a good thing either.If some extreemist muslims store emos within a mosque then it wouldn’t be appreciated.Mehmood did right or wrong,I am not eligible at the moment to agree or disagree with you.

    Taliban can also, with regards to their shameful act in Afghanistan when the destroyed very sacred & holy as well as historic statues.

    They only destructed one big statue at Bamyan and I personally see this was not different than Abraham(AS) did thousands of years back.Ka’aba had 360 Idols if you remember.

  49. Glow Subz (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 3:56 pm

    DAN My friend you can suppress a 8:1 minority, but can you suppress a 2:1 minority???

    The long list of incidents are state funded communal riots. Again would that be possible under 2:1 ration??
    When u said “Islam azad nahii…” i thought u are saing people can not practise islam there. I meant to say Islam is being practised there openly freely & easily (except public slaughtering of animals).

    I’m a proud Pakistani dude! but it certainly hurts when i see Muslims over there or any other place are being humiliated because of our actions.
    Muslims over there have started loosing soft heart for Pakistan just because of our deeds.

  50. Dan (unregistered) on August 15th, 2006 @ 4:20 pm

    DAN My friend you can suppress a 8:1 minority, but can you suppress a 2:1 minority???

    all it would’ve done really would be the same sort of riots etc but on a larger scale – with both parties suffering as opposed to just muslims as is the case. Have a look at what probably is the start of an ethnic genocide in Sri Lanka.

    the country is spilt between two sets of races, 60% sinhala, and 40% tamil (Read Hindus and Muslims, as it would’ve been in our case). Due to de-colonisation by the british empire, they est a majority rule (which would’ve been Hindu), which in the 60’s and 70’s led to laws being implemented that promoted racism (ie segregated schools with tamils having little education, the proposed phasing out of the tamil language etc)

    the tamils thus wanted their own country, called “tamil eelam” which occupies north and east of the country. There has been intense battles over this region. many a murder has taken place (1983 riots in colombo for example where tamils were systematically being hunted through electoral papers being handed out by politicians to thugs). There has been ceasefire for a few years now, but a new right wing government has meant a renewal to attrocities common place in the 80’s and 90’s.

    Dont think there’s any reason to believe that our situation would’ve been much different to the above one, had we stayed in India.

    I’m a proud Pakistani dude! but it certainly hurts when i see Muslims over there or any other place are being humiliated because of our actions.

    Muslims over there have started loosing soft heart for Pakistan just because of our deeds.

    Good to know you’re proud.

    It does hurt when you see muslims suffering anywhere, yes.

    However please lets not fall for the indian propaganda here. India has tried extremely hard through lobbying, through its media, through its news sources and diplomatically in (with some success) discrediting the legitimate freedom struggle of the people of Kasmir by labelling them ALL as terrorists. In addition, Indians today aren’t willing to accept the threat from home-grown muslims such as the SIMI and the LeT-India wing who are ready to take up arms and fight against the human rights abuses India commits. Its very convenient to point the finger at the traditional rivals as it covers up their own shortcomings.

    Its about time Indian muslims (they’ve got a bigger muslim population afterall) took a stand for themselves.

    btw – I’m always at my most patriotic this month every year ;-)

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